death penalty

[Fleetwood Mac]

But the furthest back we can trace the Praeger's we're descended from is to Amsterdam. However many of the died in Germany so who knows where they originally came from.

Were they Jewish?

I can't think of any Dutch word that puts an a before the e, but thinking about if the Belgian Flemish do. Is there any chance that Amsterdam was merely the diocese of a wider area? Or was your granddad Jewish?

If you look every day Dutch words, it will be double a or an e before and I, but not an a before an e.

[GUT]

G'day Fleetwood Mac

Great Grandfather was definitely born in Amsterdam and as far as we know not Jewish.

For at least 5 generations it was spelt AE but and it is a big BUT some records spell it EA. Every record we have been able to trace filled out by the family was spelt AE only those completed by others use the alternate spelling.

Great Grandfather was actually the Vice consul for the Kingdom of the Netherlands, to Ireland.

Oh there should also have been one extra great in every reference ie I was out by a generation when I posted.

But really I am a real mongrel with a mixed pedigree, some of them were as poor as church mice and illiterates others richer than you can imagine and others University educated.

I forgot to add that 3X Great Grandad was born in Jamaica, but of British stock owned a couple of plantations and as many as 500 slaves, his grandfather's brother was once described as the richest commoner in all England who was known to lend money to the King, why didn't they keep some for me?

[Beowulf]

posted twice

[Beowulf]

This is someone who would've gotten the death penalty.
He will now get out on Parolewas granted parole on Wednesday by a California parole board, although it was not certain he would be freed.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-usa-crime-manson-20140312,0,5943130.story

"Former Manson Family killer Bruce Davis granted parole

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Former Manson Family member Bruce Davis, who was sentenced to life in prison for two 1969 murders carried out with other members of the cult, was granted parole on Wednesday by a California parole board, although it was not certain he would be freed.

Davis' parole must still be affirmed by California Governor Jerry Brown, who reversed a similar decision by the same board last year, saying that the 71-year-old convicted killer remained a danger to the public.

A spokesman for Brown declined to say if the governor was expected to block Davis' release again.

Davis has been serving a life sentence in a California state prison since his 1972 conviction for the murders of music teacher Gary Hinman, who was stabbed to death in July 1969, and stunt man Donald "Shorty" Shea, who was killed the following month.

Davis, who was arrested in 1970 after nearly a year on the run, was previously granted parole in 2010 but remained incarcerated after that decision was reversed by then-California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Manson became one of the 20th century's most infamous criminals in the summer of 1969, when he directed his mostly young, female followers to murder seven people in what prosecutors said was part of a plan to incite a race war between whites and blacks.

Among the victims was actress Sharon Tate, the pregnant wife of filmmaker Roman Polanski. She was stabbed 16 times by members of the cult in the early morning hours of August 9, 1969.

Four other people were also stabbed or shot to death at Tate's home that night by the Manson followers, who scrawled the word "Pig" in blood on the front door before leaving.

The following night, Manson's group stabbed Leno and Rosemary LaBianca to death, using their blood to write "Rise," "Death to Pigs" and "Healter Skelter" - a misspelled reference to the Beatles song "Helter Skelter" - on the walls and refrigerator door.

Davis did not take part in those murders.

Manson was originally sentenced to death for the murder spree that horrified the nation in the late 1960s but was spared execution after the California Supreme Court declared the death penalty unconstitutional in 1972.

Now 79, he is serving a life sentence at Corcoran State Prison for the seven Tate-LaBianca killings and the murder of Hinman. He has been repeatedly denied parole.

Steve Grogan, a Manson Family member who was convicted of murdering Shea at Manson's direction, was released in the mid-1980s."

[GUT]

G'day Beowulf

But all of that is a good argument for Life without Parole.

We have it in some states but not others here.

Yesterday a low life was sentenced to life with a minimum of 20 years the Judge made it clear that he should never get out but in her State it was the highest sentence she could give him.

I'm all for Life without Parole as an option.

Though Prison Officers that I know are all almost universally against it as they say those prisoners have nothing to loose and are much harder to manage whereas those who think they might eventually get out have some encouragement to behave.

[Abby Normal]

But all of that is a good argument for Life without Parole.

We have it in some states but not others here.

Yesterday a low life was sentenced to life with a minimum of 20 years the Judge made it clear that he should never get out but in her State it was the highest sentence she could give him.

I'm all for Life without Parole as an option.

Though Prison Officers that I know are all almost universally against it as they say those prisoners have nothing to loose and are much harder to manage whereas those who think they might eventually get out have some encouragement to behave.

Tell shorty that.
A witness said she heard him screaming for hours, pleading for his life and screaming in pain.


why should shortys family pay taxes to help feed cloth and house his killer?

Sorry, it's not an argument for life without parole. If it not an argument for capital punishment , then I don't know what is.

And re your prisoner officers-they'd prefer to just give the killers all 3 day sentences and a pink balloon since it would make their jobs easier.

[Abby Normal]

But that confirms my observation that murderers could get off entirely if those against make up 45% of potential jurors, and this percentage could rise further as old attitudes gradually catch up with changes in the law (as with spousal abuse, racial hatred, homophobia and so on) and the younger generation grows up with those laws in place.

While some of the 45% would say so up front and not serve in a case where capital punishment was a real possibility, others would feel strongly enough to keep quiet but then refuse to convict.

Love,

Caz
X

So it's ok to HELP a convicted murderer go free just because you don't Beleive in the punishment?????

What ?

[Errata]

My general disinterest in keeping murderers alive stops in that it would allow us to catch more of them. Really my only objection to the death penalty.

But I do find it a little disturbing that innocent people have been put to death, we know they were innocent, they have been proven innocent, and yet the government still maintains that no innocent people have been executed. We know Ethel Rosenberg was innocent. Not so much her husband, but she was. And it was clear even before her execution that she was innocent, and that the feds were using her as leverage against her husband. If he talked they would spare her. And we electrocuted her. And no congressman will entertain the proposal that she be acquitted after death. They certainly will not apologize.

I'm a realist. I know innocent people will be executed. Hopefully very rarely, but it has happened, it will happen. But I don't want to be a kind of people who don't admit our mistakes and make restitution. I want our lawmakers and our justice system to admit when they screw up. I want them to do it when they break the rules, violate someone's civil rights, wrongfully convict, imprison, even execute. I feel better when they say "yeah we made a mistake". When they won't admit it, it makes me wonder what else they don't admit. So yeah. That really bothers me.

[Beowulf]

But all of that is a good argument for Life without Parole.

We have it in some states but not others here.

Yesterday a low life was sentenced to life with a minimum of 20 years the Judge made it clear that he should never get out but in her State it was the highest sentence she could give him.

I'm all for Life without Parole as an option.

Though Prison Officers that I know are all almost universally against it as they say those prisoners have nothing to loose and are much harder to manage whereas those who think they might eventually get out have some encouragement to behave.

But the reasoning is that there should be no Capital Punishment because there may be an innocent executed.

However, if that same system that spares the possibility of an innocent person receiving an unjust death through Capital Punishment than why should the 'innocent' person be damned to Life without Parole?

In other words, the same system that would deign to protect the innocent from Capital Punishment by shifting them over to Life without Parole would condemn them to Lifelong Imprisonment.

This from the same people reasoning they are being just by being against Capital Punishment. These very people are guilty of supporting a system that would imprison the innocent long term.

[RivkahChaya]

So it's ok to HELP a convicted murderer go free just because you don't Beleive in the punishment?????

What ?

The guilty/not guilty-death/life parts of the trial are two different deliberations with two different cases put before the jury. Someone can vote to convict, then be a holdout against the death penalty. If there is a single holdout, though, it may become increasingly clear the juror lied during voir dire, which is done under oath. I wouldn't recommend it, myself, and I'm against the death penalty.

[Robert]

Well, "without parole" presumably doesn't mean "regardless of the appearance of exonerating evidence."

As far as I know there is only one offence where matters of guilt or innocence are completely disregarded, and that's not owning a TV licence.

[Wickerman]

In other words, the same system that would deign to protect the innocent from Capital Punishment by shifting them over to Life without Parole would condemn them to Lifelong Imprisonment.

Good point, yes, and I agree completely.

The fault lies with the methods & procedures involved in Prosecution & Defense, not the sentencing.
In both cases it cannot be argued down that the present systems are so defective that the guilty are not always convicted, but the innocent sometimes are.

When we apply the death sentence we are insuring this convict will not commit the crime again. It is foolproof insurance and is a necessity today.

We shouldn't back away from this level of insurance just because our system of prosecution is defective.
We should correct the problem not walk away from it.

[sdreid]

Yes, I never quite understood why some seem to think that locking a man in a cage for 65 years is this great humanitarian gesture.

I personally would only reserve the death penalty for life without parole convicts who commit serious crimes while serving their sentence. Adding a hundred years on a life sentence is no punishment at all so it's the only practical punishment that remains. Serious crimes would be escape or major violent crimes or the attempts to do either.

[Errata]

Yes, I never quite understood why some seem to think that locking a man in a cage for 65 years is this great humanitarian gesture.

Which is why I'm a fan of the SuperMax system. It's basically human storage. No social interaction, no tv, no smokes, an hour of exercise, basically sitting in a cell the size of a port a john for 23 hours a day. Prisoners in those systems routinely beg for their sentence to be commuted to death. Stick someone like Ted Bundy in one of those things, and he would spend his life praying for death. It's really the perfect place for the confessed and unrepentant, the insanely violent, the incurable and the unmanageable.

I mean, psychopathy has a bunch of genetic and physiological factors. It's not a guys fault he was born with dead spots in his brain that make him a psychopath. And it seems a little unfair to kill him for something he didn't choose. But that doesn't mean he can ever be allowed back out in the populace. He can't get "better", he can't grown new brain. So human storage is perfect. Sure it's a living hell, but a man can make a heaven out of hell if he really wants to.

[Abby Normal]

Arguing that you shouldn't have the deathy penalty because certain jurors who don't believe in it wouldn't convict is like saying you should abolish a law because people break it.