The United States (Southern end)

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello FM,

Drop me a line or two via pm and I will give you a few hints and tips, depending on where you are off to in Norway, or even Scandinavia.

Phil

Hello Phil,

We haven't thought much beyond the fjords in Norway. We're hoping to jump on a train and just take in the scenery. My main interest is history, so anything you can offer around that will be appreciated - clearly, there's the viking aspect and WW2, but I'm sure there's a lot more on which you can send some information.

Thanks in advance.

[lynn cates]

The blues for Norway?

Hello Mac.

"We haven't thought much beyond the fjords in Norway."

Pining for the fjords, eh? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Phil Carter]

Hello Phil,

We haven't thought much beyond the fjords in Norway. We're hoping to jump on a train and just take in the scenery. My main interest is history, so anything you can offer around that will be appreciated - clearly, there's the viking aspect and WW2, but I'm sure there's a lot more on which you can send some information.

Thanks in advance.

Hello FM,

Well, for a start Norway is 3 or 4 times longer than GB in distance from "top to toe"..It takes ages by train to get places because there are no super high speed trains available. Because of the distances involved, driving over long periods and resting up a few days in certain areas is easiest, although I would recommend air travel.

The fjords are out on the Western Coast, from Stavanger and Bergen upwards. They ARE spectacular, yes, but then again the time of year you travel is important too.

The Viking aspect originates mainly from the area I live in, and of course the Viking museum in Oslo, where various Viking boats are kept (one, specifically from my town, 2 hours south of Oslo.).

As far as WWII is concerned.. there are various bases and some museums. In the very north of the country for example, whole towns were burnt to the ground by the Nazi's and nothing pre 1945 exists. Oslo has it's own history of resistance groups, as of course do other areas. The famous heavy water works in Telemark are about 3 hours drive from me.. 4-5 hours from Oslo.

The easiest thing to do is plan the amount of time you have according to what you want to see, but be warned...EVERYTHING in Norway is expensive. Most things are 2 to three times higher than GB prices, and restaurant bills can be very expensive. Even just going to a pub and having a couple of beers will cost you nearer to £20 in Oslo, £17 approx elsewhere. Petrol is the one thing you may find affordable (about £1.50/litre)

The weather is surprisingly hot in the summer...be warned... sometimes much warmer than GB, and as the air is so clear, no smog anywhere, one can get burned rather quickly. 25C is quite regular, 30C plus is known too in the inland areas. But beware the winter drops down to the -20C range....down south.. up north, out in the county of Finnmark, where all the reindeer are, the temperature regularly drops to -50C. The land of the midnight sun is spectacular ... 3 months of no darkness north of the Arctic Circle (June, July and August) as is winter up there too.. no light in November December and January.
It really depends on what you want to see. If the fjords is the thing..May or June would be fantastic...include the 17th May (the National Day) and you will see things that you'll not witness anywhere else in the world.


Norwegians say they are cold people..which is not true.. they are actually really nice people though a little careful at first, then after a beer or two relax warmly. They like English people, adore English football (it's a culture over here to watch the games from the Premier League), and when you first get to know a Norwegian family, or couple, then you are friends for life.


Just pm the details and I will see if I can help somewhere along the line somehow. After 33 years here, I know a few people here and there in the travel business that may be able to help.


Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hello Mac.

"We haven't thought much beyond the fjords in Norway."

Pining for the fjords, eh? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

Norwegian Blue.... stuns easily lol


Phil

[Phil Carter]

Norwegian Blue.... stuns easily lol


Phil

Talking of stunning...

https://www.google.no/search?q=prekestolen&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=rmN2UtaPH-nV4gTs4YDwAQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1344&bih=695

Phil

[Robert]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/10421672/Norway-broadcasts-marathon-knitting-show.html

[Fleetwood Mac]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ting-show.html

Phil, can your mates in the travel business get me involved in this in some way? Don't tell 'em I'm a ringer as my knitting skills are legendary!

The fjords are the main thing. Also, we tend to like quaint towns/villages/rural areas rather than the big cities. But, we will go to Oslo for a day or two just to have a look round. We'll be going June/July time, and I'd guessed they'd have nice summers over that way.

I didn't appreciate the size of Norway, though. Is it realistic to attempt to cram Sweden, Denmark and Norway into 2 weeks?

[Fleetwood Mac]

Forgot to mention, Phil.

Not sure if you're English by birth, but the North East of England is the only place in the country where Old Norse has survived to this day - specifically Durham and Northumberland. So, there's a talking point when I get there.

Words such as: Gan (going); yerm (home); beck (stream) - and I believe beck is only used in the coalfields of South Durham in the entire country. These are all used regularly in every day language, along with a distinct dialect and vocabularly that makes our accents/speech almost impenetrable for the rest of the country - suppose it comes from being placed in the top corner out the way.

[Errata]

That's an interesting take on it.

My understanding is that the English were one of the first to arrive, but after the initial colonisation of parts of what is today's US not many Englishmen/women migrated to the US as they preferred Australia (for economic reasons). I was under the impression that the "Scotch-Irish" arrived after the English?

They did. But the English who were in Tennessee were mostly military. They established some forts, I think two are still standing, but they didn't colonize Tennessee. They did not so much bring their families and settle down here, so we don't count them. This isn't a national thing, where clearly the original 13 colonies were mostly English. We were the wilderness. The frontier. We count who settled in our borders, not the borders of the US. Remember our states were essentially sovereign nations at first. Tennessee counts it's origins Scotch-Irish. The US counts it's origins as English.

In terms of Irishmen practicing a Scottish religion - you don't wanna say that to them if you're ever in that part of the world! They are fiercely loyal to the British Crown and they do not consider themselves to be Irishmen in any way, shape or form. Their national flag is the English Cross of St George with the Crown of the British Monarch at the top. I was sat in a pub in Beale Street and this flag was in there, along with the Saltaire (Scottish flag) and the British Union Jack.

Oh I know. Though Ulster is in Ireland and Presbytry is Scottish. But I still firmly believe it creates a conflict of character. A pleasant one, but there nonetheless.

And, believe you and me, the Scottish as a rule are not laid back people! They're industrious and their levels of cantankerousness are legendary round these parts.

Half Scottish. Totally understand. That's a lot of what I mean by a conflict of character. You have the Irish romanticism, the Scottish practicality, the Irish hospitality, the Scottish suspicion, the Irish mood swings and the Scottish perseverance. Irish expansiveness, Scottish solitary leanings. It's why they were terribly hospitable communities in the middle of nowhere, where they would give you the shirt off your back but firmly send you on your way. Our music is very Irish. Our manners are very Irish. Our fierce independence is Scottish. Our instinctive defense of our way of life, and our stubborn refusal to alter it when we travel is Scottish. We also tend to have very black and white views on right and wrong. And Southerners act on that. We are the "Volunteer State". And for the love of god you do not cross our women. Our temper is Irish. Our method is Scottish. Which when I was in Scotland I found delightful. It was the only other women I had met who made someone feel like a congenital idiot who was a huge disappointment to his parents. You're not just criminally stupid, you're gonna make your momma cry.

Oh, and Presbytarians weren't religious dissenters. Presbytarianism is the established religion of Scotland and is a much more hard line form of Protestantism than that which was ever introduced in England. Scotland had a proper reformation like Germany; we had a mere falling out with the Pope and maintained some catholic practices to this very day

But Presbyterianism is different that Irish Protestantism. That why dissenters. Irish people, Scottish religion. It's not Scots disagreeing with Scots, It's Irish disagreeing with Irish.

Edited to add: I have a book in front of me: "Reflections on the South and Southern History: What Caused The Civil War" by Edward L Ayers, who is an historian of the South. According to him, the South looked to Britain, particularly England, for codes of civility and conduct.

But, the English who arrived were probably religious dissenters, as the Church of England had things sewn up and it was a religion of the shires. The towns/cities/industrial areas spawned religions such as Methodism, which concentrated on reforming the masses stuck in a supposed rut of hard labour and alcoholism; their surmons were held outdoors so everyone could attend rather than in a church where not everyone could attend for financial reasons. There is still today the grass pit where John Wesley preached his first surmon to the miners of Cornwall. Just about all of my family were methodists as a lot of miners from Cornwall moved to the Durham coalfields for work, with the exception of my paternal Grandmother who was Scottish who moved here with her Mother who came down during World War One as the head of the family was killed at Ypres (and they were housed with other families who had lost their fathers/husbands, and there were many when you consider that in one day alone on the 1st July 1916, the British Army lost 60,000 men killed, wounded or missing; in a place called Washington Hall - and you can probably guess the significance of this place!).

I have met Professor Ayers. Great guy. Here he is talking about the original Southern colonies. Specifically North Carolina. Now Tennessee was originally a colony (I guess? territory?) of North Carolina. But it was not colonized by North Carolina because of the mountains. You have to go through the mountains to get from one to the other. Even today that interstate is treacherous, I can't imagine doing it on foot. Mostly colonists came down from Virginia into Kentucky, then into Tennessee. Which, kids, is why geography matters.

But remember each state had it's own identity. Louisiana is clearly French. Because that's who settled them. Mississippi isn't French, exactly. Georgia is English. Alabama, Mississippi and Tennessee are mutt states. More so Alabama. A lot of English, French in the south, Scotch Irish in the North. We (Tennesseans) are Scotch-Irish in the East and North. French and African around Memphis in the west, Irish in the Hills, English in the plains, and it all rolls together into this unique brew in Middle Tennessee. Probably because the state is horizontally shaped like a bowl, so everything eventually rolls down to here.

I am many things. I am an American, and that gives me one identity. I am a southerner, and that gives me another identity. I am a Tennessean, which gives me a third identity, and being originally a Nashvillian gives me a fourth. And being a Nashvillian is as different from being a Memphan as it is from being a New Yorker. And being a Tennessean is as different from being a Georgian, and being a Southerner is as different from being a Northerner, all as much as being an American is different from being British.

So if you ever thought we Americans were a little (or a lot) schizophrenic, thats why.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Oh I know. Though Ulster is in Ireland and Presbytry is Scottish. But I still firmly believe it creates a conflict of character. A pleasant one, but there nonetheless. Half Scottish. Totally understand. That's a lot of what I mean by a conflict of character. You have the Irish romanticism, the Scottish practicality, the Irish hospitality, the Scottish suspicion, the Irish mood swings and the Scottish perseverance. Irish expansiveness, Scottish solitary leanings. It's why they were terribly hospitable communities in the middle of nowhere, where they would give you the shirt off your back but firmly send you on your way. Our music is very Irish. Our manners are very Irish. Our fierce independence is Scottish. Our instinctive defense of our way of life, and our stubborn refusal to alter it when we travel is Scottish. We also tend to have very black and white views on right and wrong. And Southerners act on that. We are the "Volunteer State". And for the love of god you do not cross our women. Our temper is Irish. Our method is Scottish. Which when I was in Scotland I found delightful. It was the only other women I had met who made someone feel like a congenital idiot who was a huge disappointment to his parents. You're not just criminally stupid, you're gonna make your momma cry.

But Presbyterianism is different that Irish Protestantism. That why dissenters. Irish people, Scottish religion. It's not Scots disagreeing with Scots, It's Irish disagreeing with Irish.

With all due respect, Errata, you only think you know.

At the museums I went to, I didn't think it was my place to point out in front of an audience a blatant misreading of history, but I will send an e-mail or two to them; as being museums I'm sure they'd want to hear.

Ulster is geographically Northern Ireland, yes. But, culturally and politically it is part of the United Kingdom. Those people are not loyal to Ireland and never were; they do not consider themselves to be Irish and never did. They have always looked to England to maintain their culture - shared protestant heritage and with England being the head of Britain etc. There is no such thing as Irish Protestantism. You can draw the line clearly in Ulster: catholics are loyal to Ireland as the native religion of Ireland; protestants (the majority) are not loyal to Ireland and even though they're the descendants of Scots men and women, who incidentally looked down on the Irish as a race, they consider themselves to be British not Scottish. People get killed in that part of the world for such innocent errors of judgement - it is that hard felt. To this day, they march through the streets of Belfast, Manchester, Glasgow and Liverpool celebrating their British identity.

It is undoubtedly not Irishmen disagreeing with Irishmen, and if you suggested that and kept on suggesting that in Ulster you would have a problem on your hands. It is Irishmen of the catholic faith from the Republic of Ireland disagreeing with the descendants of Scots protestants who consider themselves to be British in every which way including culturally, politically and in terms of religion.

A quick google would give you a cursory understanding of this. The flag of Ulster/Northern Ireland, whatever you want to call it, is not the Irish tricolor; it is the English cross of St George with the crown of the monarch and a red hand in the middle which is known as 'The Red Hand of Ulster' and is a sign of defiance to anything catholic or Irish.

Now to us English, we find this extremism that exists between the Irish and the Ulster protestants all very distasteful and such extremism is not consistent with the moderate English form of Protestantism (it is more in tune with the Scottish form of religion - the Puritans didn't last long here). They look to the government in London to maintain their way of life and we look back baffled by the whole thing - and to be frank we tend to think they're a pack of idiots who should grow up sharpish.

I have met Professor Ayers. Great guy. Here he is talking about the original Southern colonies.

Not in the book I have in front of me. Do you have the book and I'll give you the page numbers?

So if you ever thought we Americans were a little (or a lot) schizophrenic, thats why.

Seemed like prefectly reasonable people to me.

[lynn cates]

singing in the choir

Hello Phil. Thanks.

Some, of course, have gone to join the choir invisible. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Fleetwood Mac]

And being a Nashvillian is as different from being a Memphan

When we got talking to people in Nashville and mentioned we were going to Memphis next, the locals tended to go quiet and you could feel the cogs ticking over in their minds thinking: "whadya wanna go there for?!"

It's the same here, Errata. The North and South, The North East and the North West, Sunderland and Newcastle which are 8 miles apart but we can't stand the sight of one another. There's an American comedian doing the rounds and one of his gags is that upon arriving in England he quickly realised one of the reasons we're indifferent to other nationalities, we reserve our vitriol for other English towns and cities. There's no room in the mind to focus on anyone else. I think the editor of the Lonely Planet Tour Guide (who I think is an Australian) wrote that England is the most culturally diverse country on the earth (he also wrote some negatives too) - he meant the regional differences which are marked.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Fleet, I'm glad you enjoyed your stay in our country. You're spot on about the sports obsession here. As I'm not a sports fan, I'm somewhat annoyed by it. But living in Oklahoma, I love the downhome southern country cookin'.

If you or anyone else is out Oklahoma way, let me know and I'll treat you to some of the best chicken fried steak and mac and cheese you've ever had.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi Fleet, I'm glad you enjoyed your stay in our country. You're spot on about the sports obsession here. As I'm not a sports fan, I'm somewhat annoyed by it. But living in Oklahoma, I love the downhome southern country cookin'.

If you or anyone else is out Oklahoma way, let me know and I'll treat you to some of the best chicken fried steak and mac and cheese you've ever had.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Ha! Cheese!

We love cheese here and most regions have various farms producing their own cheese.

But we don't eat it with everything!

Go into a US sandwich shop and when asked do you want cheese on it say no, you'll feel the hostility for the crime of non cheese activities. 5 seconds of silence, disbelief and cogs turning: "what?!, no cheese!?, are you human?!".

The chances of me getting to Oklahoma are pretty slim, Tom, but thanks for the offer.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Errata,

I should correct something I said earlier.

Been doing a spot of reading and it turns out that a lot more English people emigrated to the US during the 19th century than I claimed.

I also came across this:

In Albion's Seed: Four British Folkways in America, historian David Hackett Fischer asserts:

Some historians describe these immigrants as "Ulster Irish" or "Northern Irish". It is true that many sailed from the province of Ulster... part of much larger flow which drew from the lowlands of Scotland, the north of England, and every side of the Irish Sea. Many scholars call these people Scotch-Irish. That expression is an Americanism, rarely used in Britain and much resented by the people to whom it was attached.

Fischer prefers to speak of "borderers" (referring to the historically war-torn England-Scotland border) as the population ancestral to the "backcountry" "cultural stream" (one of the four major and persistent cultural streams he identifies in American history) and notes the borderers were not purely Celtic but also had substantial Anglo-Saxon and Viking or Scandinavian roots, and were quite different from Celtic-speaking groups like the Scottish Highlanders or Irish (that is, Gaelic-speaking and Roman Catholic).