Private sale

[Ally]

There is a large public interest in discovering who was Jack the Ripper ( witness all the published books, films and TV series even loosely based around the subject).

No, there is a large interest in SPECULATING on who the ripper was. All the movies, TV series, etc. would end in a heartbeat if it were ever definitively proven.

On another thread it was argued that the official police suspects were somehow worth more than more recent suspects ( even though we are now more experienced in serial killers, and have better access to facts about the suspects lives, via computers).

And yet, in real serial killer cases it has been proven time and time again, that the police didn't have a single clue who the killer was, until the advent of DNA or until something happened that was so blatant it could not be ignored. So no, only fantasists who buy into the "sherlock" mindset of policing and the "great detective" think that police of the time would have had any more of a real clue than the man in the moon.

Ergo, a document that purports to identify the name of Jack the Ripper, as known by senior policemen, is of great historical interest outside of our small pool of enthusiasts.

Nope. Sorry. Afterall that document has been well-known for dozens of years. HAve people outside our small group of enthusiasts been lining up to get a glimpse? Have the movie makers approached the Swansons to do a story on the Life of DSS. Has DSS even APPEARED in any of the films as a main character??

The only reason that I can see not to publicise and sell it with as much fanfare as the owners could drum up, is that it would then be subjected to new verification?

Uh they have been publicizing it and attempting to sell it with fanfare. What do you want them to do, take out a billboard on Times Square? If your concern is that they haven't auctioned it off at Sotheby's, once again, why would they? They then have to find a buyer willing not only to pay tens of thousands of pounds for it but thousands of pounds in fees. Good luck with that.

So what are they frightened of is my immediate question ??

It's always interesting when the logical course of action is disparaged as being cowardly. Shows how few people have an acquaintance with logic.

[Ally]

A fee that would be compensated for by a higher selling price.

Not if they can't get anyone willing to pay the lower selling price, good luck finding someone to pay even more for it.

You all are seriously overestimating the value of the book to the public at large.

And once agian you are so concerned about it disappearing into a private collection, what do you think will happen if it goes at auction? You think it will be bought by anyone other than some bored, rich dilettante who will stick it in a drawer and forget about it?

[Rubyretro]

How crushing.

[Ally]

And as I said earlier, if marketed properly TV interest could easily be generated and they would pay for it.

Remind me again. In the 20+ years since the Marginalia came to light, precisely how many television series and movies has Donald Swanson been portrayed in?

[Lechmere]

Ally
There are films made about plenty of solved crimes, so I don’t think you can say that interest in Jack the Ripper would fade if the solution were known.
In any case do I have to really spell out that no document will actually solve the case and one that seems to solve it, or go some way towards solving it to some people’s satisfaction – such as the Marginalia - will have value?
And there are rich people who collect such stuff.
Most people probably think it is solved based on ‘From Hell’.

Some people are good at selling an idea, some are not. TV companies do not tend to come bashing down your door – you have to sell it to them.
I had better explain to you that when I say ‘sell’ I do not mean literally ‘sell’.

Some people are good at selling items.
When I use the word ‘sell’ here I mean literally sell – for money.
I don’t think the Swanson Collection has been sold well to get a sale.

Part of the problem for the sale of the Collection are all the irate forum posters who throw a massive strop along with accusations around every time anyone raises a query about the Marginalia or it’s authenticity.
They make the whole Collection stink.

That Swanson doesn’t feature in films is irrelevant. The 2006 presentation to Scotland Yard created widespread interest. It is, whether you like it or not a matter of interest. For some reason you are determined to minimise the interest in and importance of the marginalia.
Adam said a valuer had placed a price of £20,000 on it. That is not a small sum. You seem to ignore this fact.
I can pretty much guarantee that this could be sold to a TV company to make a documentary about the sale.

And once again to repeat…
I expect that however the Marginalia is sold – privately or in auction - it will disappear into a private collection. I am concerned that before that happens, before someone invests their money in it and so acquires a financial motive in maintaining its authenticity, that it is verified. It will probably be the last opportunity for this to take place.

Your ‘points’ are becoming more and more irrelevant and obtuse, while every word has to be repeatedly explained in great and lengthy detail to you.

PS At least I agree with you opinion about ‘police suspects‘.

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE]

No, there is a large interest in SPECULATING on who the ripper was. All the movies, TV series, etc. would end in a heartbeat if it were ever definitively proven.

Nope. I bet that it would spark off a whole new interest. Speculation is only one avenue. Proving who the Ripper really was would open a different and new avenue.

,

only fantasists who buy into the "sherlock" mindset of policing and the "great detective" think that police of the time would have had any more of a real clue than the man in the moon.

We agree then ! However, it is incredible how many people disagree with us.

Nope. Sorry. Afterall that document has been well-known for dozens of years. HAve people outside our small group of enthusiasts been lining up to get a glimpse? Have the movie makers approached the Swansons to do a story on the Life of DSS. Has DSS even APPEARED in any of the films as a main character??

Your whole argument is stupid here.

No because the document hasn't been marketed to reach the widest amount of people - why ? You could get Ryan Gosling to play DSS and there would be an audience. There isn't one because no one has heard of the argument. They haven't because it is one more red herring, drowned, amongst many.

If it held any truth then it could be sold as such -it isn't being pushed as truth because it is fake.

Uh they have been publicizing it and attempting to sell it with fanfare. What do you want them to do, take out a billboard on Times Square? If your concern is that they haven't auctioned it off at Sotheby's, once again, why would they? They then have to find a buyer willing not only to pay tens of thousands of pounds for it but thousands of pounds in fees. Good luck with that.

They would have to pay a percentage of the Sales. The Sales would be much more if it were authenticated though....

It's always interesting when the logical course of action is disparaged as being cowardly. Shows how few people have an acquaintance with logic.

Sez you. The logic is to get as much money as possible by subjecting it to authentication, publicity, and competition in an auction. The percentage paid for fees would be commensurate with the price paid by the highest bidder.

[Ally]

Ally
There are films made about plenty of solved crimes, so I don’t think you can say that interest in Jack the Ripper would fade if the solution were known.

Really? Name a single solved case that has two dozen films made about it like the Ripper case does. Yes sure, a single movie will be made about a crime, but it doesn't generate the same industry that unsolved cases do.

And there are rich people who collect such stuff.

Yes there are. And since you seem to be promoting the idea of an auction while lamenting it might be sold into a private collection never to see the light of day, you seem to be advocating for the very thing you are lamenting. Who else do you think will buy it an auction but (as I already pointed out and you ignored) some rich dilettante with no real interest in the case who will toss it on a shelf with their other collectibles and forget about it.

So which is it? Do you think it has sufficient value to be shopped to enthusiasts or do you want it sold off to some richie where we will never see it again?

Some people are good at selling an idea, some are not. TV companies do not tend to come bashing down your door – you have to sell it to them.

Oh bullcrap. Amanda Knox didn't have to go to the TV companies, they came to her. Amber Frey, the cheerleader murder, the cadet love triangle murder, all made for TV that the producers were salivating and beating on doors to produce. The same with every national crime story in the last 15 years. If you have juicy crime story, they go to you.

Part of the problem for the sale of the Collection are all the irate forum posters who throw a massive strop along with accusations around every time anyone raises a query about the Marginalia or it’s authenticity.
They make the whole Collection stink.

This is so pitiably ironic and stupid I can't even drum up a response.

That Swanson doesn’t feature in films is irrelevant.

LOL of course it is. There you are trying to sell its appeal to the TV/Movie industry but the fact that TV/Movie industry could not care less about DSS is irrelevant. Riiiiiight.

That's a weak argument even compared to your usual feeble protestations.

Adam said a valuer had placed a price of £20,000 on it. That is not a small sum. You seem to ignore this fact.

I don't ignore it. I just have no idea who valued it at that price, what precisely they were valuing, and what their considerations for that appraisal was. Therefore, the sum is meaningful. For all I know at this point it was Ricky Cobb in a drunken stupor going "YOu could get like 20 grand for that man! 20 Grand!" When I have facts, I will make a judgment about their value. I have no facts at this time.

I can pretty much guarantee that this could be sold to a TV company to make a documentary about the sale.

Oh you guarantee it do you? Well I am sure the Swanson's are relieved to hear you are going to sell them a documentary. Go for it my man. We all look forward to your efforts.

I am concerned that before that happens, before someone invests their money in it and so acquires a financial motive in maintaining its authenticity, that it is verified. It will probably be the last opportunity for this to take place.

It's so nice of you to be worried about other people's money like that. I don't know what the world would do without you looking out for their financial well-being. Truly, it shows how much you care about people.

[Chris]

Part of the problem for the sale of the Collection are all the irate forum posters who throw a massive strop along with accusations around every time anyone raises a query about the Marginalia or it’s authenticity.
They make the whole Collection stink.

Speaking for myself, it does annoy me that a few people (in fact perhaps just two or three) periodically appear to hint darkly, for reasons best known to themselves, that the marginalia are not genuine and that there is some kind of conspiracy at work to conceal the fact. In this case the hints were about Dr Davies's 'closeness' to the Swanson family, though in typical fashion the hints evaporated under challenge, leaving only the bare fact that Dr Davies visited Bill Swanson's house to look at the document!

The reason this annoys me is that the targets of this innuendo are not Ripperologists. On one side they are the descendants of a police officer, and on the other a professional document examiner. They are not inhabitants of the increasingly depressing world of Ripperology, and they do not deserve to be dragged into the gutters of that world by its denizens.

[Trevor Marriott]

There is a large public interest in discovering who was Jack the Ripper ( witness all the published books, films and TV series even loosely based around the subject).

On another thread it was argued that the official police suspects were somehow worth more than more recent suspects ( even though we are now more experienced in serial killers, and have better access to facts about the suspects lives, via computers).

Ergo, a document that purports to identify the name of Jack the Ripper, as known by senior policemen, is of great historical interest outside of our small pool of enthusiasts.

With the right marketing it would be worth a good deal more than through a private sale.

The only reason that I can see not to publicise and sell it with as much fanfare as the owners could drum up, is that it would then be subjected to new verification?

So what are they frightened of is my immediate question ??

They have been frightened to have to have it closely scrutinized by an independent handwriting expert which I offered to pay for.

They did their utmost to stop Dr Davies being interviewed by me with regards to challenging the results of his examination and his given opinion.

Unlike them I have no agenda other than to prove or disprove its authenticity and so far there is much to suggest that it is not totally authentic. There are other facts to consider outside of the marginalia itself which have an impact on it being totally authentic or not which some seem to want to ignore.

[Ally]

They have been frightened to have to have it closely scrutinized by an independent handwriting expert which I offered to pay for.

They did their utmost to stop Dr Davies being interviewed by me with regards to challenging the results of his examination and his given opinion.

I don't think they were frightened. I think they just figured you were a) bluffing and wouldn't go through with the promised payment and b) consider you something of an obnoxious a-hole and didn't want to lift a finger to help you in any way.

Also now of course, there is the specter of plagiarism hanging over any research you come in contact with so that might be a further reason as your integrity cannot be considered unimpeachable any more. This would not have been a consideration back then, but it is a consideration from now on.

Unlike them I have no agenda other than to prove or disprove its authenticity

Lies make baby Jesus cry.

[Trevor Marriott]

Speaking for myself, it does annoy me that a few people (in fact perhaps just two or three) periodically appear to hint darkly, for reasons best known to themselves, that the marginalia are not genuine and that there is some kind of conspiracy at work to conceal the fact. In this case the hints were about Dr Davies's 'closeness' to the Swanson family, though in typical fashion the hints evaporated under challenge, leaving only the bare fact that Dr Davies visited Bill Swanson's house to look at the document!

The reason this annoys me is that the targets of this innuendo are not Ripperologists. On one side they are the descendants of a police officer, and on the other a professional document examiner. They are not inhabitants of the increasingly depressing world of Ripperology, and they do not deserve to be dragged into the gutters of that world by its denizens.

They have put themselves in that position.

If Dr Davies were giving the same evidence in a criminal or civil case he would be cross examined and after hearing both his evidence in chief and the answers to his cross examination a court or jury would be in a better position to make a proper decision.

Why therefore should I or anyone else for that matter not question his examination and its conclusions.

As to The Swanson family Jim Swanosn made it public he put it up in the public domain and therefore people have a right to question it. After all he was paid for making it public.

So please dont keep saying that no one should question these people and their actions etc.

[Chris]

They are not inhabitants of the increasingly depressing world of Ripperology, and they do not deserve to be dragged into the gutters of that world by its denizens.

I feel I should almost thank Trevor Marriott for underlining that point by posting his latest instalment of drivel.

[Ally]

The reason this annoys me is that the targets of this innuendo are not Ripperologists. On one side they are the descendants of a police officer, and on the other a professional document examiner. They are not inhabitants of the increasingly depressing world of Ripperology, and they do not deserve to be dragged into the gutters of that world by its denizens.

I am a bit baffled by your statement. What does being the descendant of a police officer have to do with anything? Are descendants of police officers automatically saints and therefore above reproach? Therefore any descendant of a criminal is forever tainted with the sins of the ancestors? Who ones grandfather is/was is irrelevant. We are speaking of individuals who are neither lifted up nor brought low by the actions of their ancestors.

And while I think Nevil is cooler than cats in spats wearing top hats, when you are selling a controversial document for tens of thousands of pounds, some scrutiny is to be expected, though I grant you, this thread with all the innuendo is ... off-putting. I have faith in Nevil's ability to remain out of the gutter though. Just because those who started this thread are wallowing in it doesn't mean he will be brought to their level by their comments.

[Chris]

So please dont keep saying that no one should question these people and their actions etc.

Learn to read. I didn't say anything about not asking questions. I said they shouldn't be subjected to your vile innuendo.

[Trevor Marriott]

I don't think they were frightened. I think they just figured you were a) bluffing and wouldn't go through with the promised payment and b) consider you something of an obnoxious a-hole and didn't want to lift a finger to help you in any way.

Also now of course, there is the specter of plagiarism hanging over any research you come in contact with so that might be a further reason as your integrity cannot be considered unimpeachable any more. This would not have been a consideration back then, but it is a consideration from now on.



Lies make baby Jesus cry.

Well its not my integrity that under consideration here is it and please stick to the matters subject to the thread.

Cheap shots get you no where.

But of course when people are on the ropes cheap shots and verbal abuse etc are all they can resort to because they is no answer to what is before them.

Until such time as that marginalia is looked at it in more detail and Dr Davies is questioned about his examination and it results, there is always going to be a cloud hanging over it and no one with any sense is going to pay mega bucks for it. Thats why it remains unsold.