Private sale

[Ally]

Ally
I’m not getting my knickers in a twist and all irate because this subject had been raised.
I think you are though.

You think wrong. And wrongly. But again I classify that under common knowledge.

I repeat – it is common knowledge that the items were being put up for sale at some time – and that they were being prepared for sale.
It was not known that they were actively being offered for sale – that is a different thing.

LOL... you are joking with that aren't you? You must be joking as you can't possibly be seriously that deluded. The website that lists the articles says it's for sale. The threads that were created about it lists it as for sale to private buyers and bids. It's been ACTIVELY BEING OFFERED FOR SALE for over a year. How hard is that for you to comprehend? It has been actively been FOR SALE for over a year. Once again, your ignorance of the facts don't actually alter the facts.

We have a document which some regard as the most significant finds in the last thirty fears in this field, that is being disposed of, possibly to hands where it will never be accessed again an your only comment is that I should buy it myself.

As opposed to what? YOu think that a private person who owns something YOU consider to be valuable owes YOU anything when it comes to his dispensation of his own personal private property. Frankly, man, who do you think you are?

The Swanson family does not owe you, me or the community at large a damn thing when it comes to their personal private property.

And yes, if you are so concerned about where it will end up THEN BUY IT and donate it to a museum of your choosing, but you have absolutely no business commenting on what a family chooses to do with their private property.

[Lechmere]

Hey man! Chill out. Be cool. Untwist those knickers.
If my post was such a non-issue why are you getting so uptight about it?

I was commenting that I am interested in what happens to it and I should think others are too - not that I am going to buy it, nor am I interested in buying it even if I was given £10 million tomorrow.
But its fate is a matter of interest and I am sure not just to me.
It is rather if a member of the aristocracy sells off an important manuscript that one of his ancestors had collected years ago. (Robert that is a better example than the Domesday Book which was the only one I could think of at the time). The state sometimes steps in to buy it. Because even though in private hands it may be deemed to have content of national interest.
I’m not suggesting that in this case obviously, but just because a document is in private hands does not mean that others are debarred from having an interest in its fate even if they do not wish it buy it themselves.
I haven’t suggested that that family owe me anything – but nor do I give my right to comment on what that family does with those items or what any family does with items of interest.

[Ally]

Hey man! Chill out. Be cool. Untwist those knickers.
If my post was such a non-issue why are you getting so uptight about it?

Because I don't appreciate people who use underhanded tactics and weaselly means to achieve their aims and then blame other people for responding negatively to their manipulations.

But its fate is a matter of interest and I am sure not just to me.

And yet, despite the fact that it's been well publicized for over a year as being for sale there isn't much discussion on it. So apparently, it is just to you. Or, most people realize that the price the Swansons want for it is out of their grasp, shrug and move on, and wait to see who buys it before attempting to stir up a controversy where there is none.

I haven’t suggested that that family owe me anything – but nor do I give my right to comment on what that family does with those items or what any family does with items of interest.

And yet, you didn't actually comment when you opened this thread did you? If you had started this thread with "Hey I just found out the Swanson Marginalia was for sale and I hope someone buys it who will subject it to rigorous testing and open it up for public scrutiny", that would at least have been a comment and something valid. But you didn't do that. You attempted to make it seem nefarious and backroom and opened the thread attempting to get others to do your dirty work and denounce it and now you are all shocked that no one is jumping on your outraged bandwagon. And you can comment all you want but other people can judge you for it, and what is coming across loud and clear is, your biggest problem is you are all pissy because they aren't selling it the way you think they ought to sell it. And how they sell it is none of your business. So you don't really have grounds to stand on.

[Lechmere]

I am afraid you have an over active imagination and are being a bit paranoid.
I had heard it was offered for sale and merely wanted to know if there were any further developments.
To me the news I heard was a development and it was unexpected to me.
That being said, given that this relates to the Marginalia and some people get very touchy and defensive when the subject is raised, I was half expecting an irate response.
I think there have been plenty of discussions involving a lot of people on this topic and many are probably nervous of airing their views as last time that happened it all went a bit pear shaped.

I just checked the Swanson sale website and I see that it is as Mr Menges suggested – it says:

‘The Donald Sutherland Swanson Collection is available to private buyers either item-by-item or as a complete collection, and will be sold by best offer.’

Which implies that people interested are invited to contact them to make bids.
And

‘At the present time it is undecided whether the Collection will be put up for auction, but if so news will appear here.’

This implies that there is indecision as to how they were going to proceed.
So when I unexpectedly heard that someone was offered it unsolicited, then I thought this was a development that maybe people may be interested in and maybe a sale would be pending.

I’m not at all ‘pissy’ that they aren’t selling it the way I suggest.
I think that for it to be taken seriously it shouldn’t be sold that way – but I have no influence over them.
I can have my opinion on the subject even though it isn’t my property.
And I don’t need any ‘grounds to stand on’ regarding this.

[Chris]

‘The Donald Sutherland Swanson Collection is available to private buyers either item-by-item or as a complete collection, and will be sold by best offer.’

Which implies that people interested are invited to contact them to make bids.

Why do you think it implies that? I can't see anything to indicate it.

[Ally]

I think that for it to be taken seriously it shouldn’t be sold that way – but I have no influence over them.

So let me see if I understand your astounding grasp of logic and salesmanship, as evidenced here. Let's say I have a classic car for sale. I post ads stating I have a classic car for sale. Meanwhile, someone informs me of a person who has an interest in classic cars and might be interested in purchasing mine but they for whatever reason have not seen my ads and therefore they have not contacted me directly.

For me to contact them unsolicited to inform them I have an item that they might be interested in purchasing is to somehow lessen the "value" of my item and means it should not be taken seriously? This is your argument?

Do you actually live in the real world or do you reside in some special magical forest where reality has yet to gain a foothold?

[Jenni Shelden]

I don't understand your problem Ed, what is your point exactly?

[Lechmere]

Ally
It isn't a classic car - your garbled example has no bearing on this.
My Domesday Book scenario had more relevance.
And no you don't understand my astounding grasp of logic and salesmanship.

Jenni
I don't have a problem. I was just curious what was going on.
If I have a 'point' it is that documents of historical importance (this does not apply to classic cars) should be dealt with in a ‘correct’ manner.
Obviously it is easy for people involved in this field to overblow the importance of any document that relates to ‘Ripperology’ – but many claims have been made about the Marginalia (not least in the identification of Kosminski) and there is a degree of controversy attached to it.
When a document is sold from its original private hands it would not be unusual for it to effectively disappear. So that is a worry in narrow ‘Ripperological’ terms. If it was sold through a reputable auction house then some of those worries would disappear because of the checks that would inevitably accompany the sale, even if the marginalia did disappear into private hands never to be seen again.

The fact that this material is owned by the Swanson family and that it is in their power to do with it as they choose is utterly irrelevant to this observation.
My personal ability or intention to buy the collection is similarly irrelevant.

[Ally]

It isn't a classic car - your garbled example has no bearing on this.
My Domesday Book scenario had more relevance.

Really do tell me. What precisely is the difference? A book scribbled in by an obscure police officer that probably not 250 people on the planet could identify who was related to a murder case that took place over 125 years ago in which a handful of women were killed is of WHAT actual value and importance to the world and to history?? What precisely would solving the mystery of Jack the Ripper matter in terms of actual historical relevance?


But don't think you dodged the question. Are you actually stating that contacting an interested party who might wish to purchase an item you have for sale (whatever it may be) lessens its intrinsic value? Because if that is actually the argument you are making, you have absolutely no argument.

[Lechmere]

Chris

I didn't copy it but there is a button underneath saying:

Click here to get in touch via email

In conjunction with the piece you quoted I would say that potential buyers are being invited to contact them to make a bid.

Have you ever tried to dissect Robert Paul's statement in Lloyds Weekly News?

[Jenni Shelden]

hi Ed,
it is irrelevant where it is sold as to if it may end up in someone's private collection never to be seen again.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didnt the Rip have an article featuring a pretty comprehensive analysis of the text. What further tests do you want done? I cant think of anything further that would help without destroying the text

Jenni

[Jenni Shelden]

Hi Ed,
what is the correct manner?
Jenni

[Lechmere]

Ally
If you think it is of no importance then I can’t imagine why you are getting so het up.
I think Adam said it had been valued at £20,000 or so. So it seems that some experts think it is fairly valuable. Although that is no guarantee that it would sell for £20,000 of course.

I haven’t dodged any question.
No I’m not saying: ‘that contacting an interested party who might wish to purchase an item you have for sale (whatever it may be) lessens its intrinsic value.’

I haven’t said anything like it.
The act of contacting an interested or a disinterested party does not diminish its value either as a historic document or financially.
I can’t imagine how you ran away with the idea that I have said anything like that.

I would say that the Marginalia’s value as a historic document and source would be diminished if it was sold privately into private hands never to be seen again.

You must stop thinking that you can apply the same logic behind the sale of all items – a pound of sugar is not the same as the Mona Lisa. The marginalia is not the same as a car.
Well, you don’t have to stop thinking that way if you don’t want to, but it is very unsophisticated.

[Ally]

Ally

I think Adam said it had been valued at £20,000 or so. So it seems that some experts think it is fairly valuable. Although that is no guarantee that it would sell for £20,000 of course.

And some classic cars go for twice that. So once again, value is in the eye of the beholder.

I haven’t dodged any question.

Actually you did. Now you've answered it.

No I’m not saying: ‘that contacting an interested party who might wish to purchase an item you have for sale (whatever it may be) lessens its intrinsic value.’

I haven’t said anything like it.

Right, you just said that for it to be "taken seriously" it shouldn't be sold that way. But taking something seriously and its intrinsic value are entirely different things. There isn't an eye roll emoticon big enough for me to use here.

I would say that the Marginalia’s value as a historic document and source would be diminished if it was sold privately into private hands never to be seen again.

How? As has already been pointed out, we know precisely what it says and what tests have been done on it. Whether it ever sees the light of day or not again is irrelevant. Are you saying that any historical artifact in private collections has lost its value? Do you actually think these arguments through in your head before you commit them to paper? So all those unbelievably valuable items in private collections have been diminished in value, simply by virtue of being in private collections. Ooookay. Need that eyeroll emoticon again.

You must stop thinking that you can apply the same logic behind the sale of all items – a pound of sugar is not the same as the Mona Lisa. The marginalia is not the same as a car.

You are KIDDING ME. The marginalia is not the same as a car??? Get right out of town. However, when I can easily find 4000 people willing to shell out 60 grand for a car, sometimes repeatedly within a year or two of purchasing their last one, you can't say a car has less value than a book that's only valued at 30 (USD).

And once again, the Swanson book is limited by its target audience which is much much smaller in appeal than a painting, a novel by a classic artist or yes, a well-made finely engineered classic automobile. A thing is only as valuable as what people are willing to pay for it and in a famine, I guarantee you people would be taking the bag of sugar over a painting.

[Lechmere]

Jenni
I doubt that a reputable auction house would regard those tests as sufficient to hang their reputation on. But if they did then that alone would be satisfactory.

In my opinion the ‘marginalia’ thus far hasn’t been dealt with in the ‘correct’ manner. Lines were drawn on the pages. For whatever reason supporting documents (that must have been available in the 1980s) have been drip fed after many years into the public domain. Some supporting documents seem to have gone missing.

I don’t think any test or investigation would be invasive.

The ‘correct’ manner in this context would be acting openly and in such a way as to avoid any element of doubt about the archive.

Obviously it is up to the family what they do – but those are my observations with respect to this archive’s value as historical documents. I would also suggest that their financial value would be enhanced by adopting this approach.