Just where do we go from here?

[Chris Scott]

Simply Google (or any other search engine) the term "Islam growing" and read any number of results, many from Muslim sources as they are proud of the spread of their religion and the growth in the number of followers.

Why should they not be proud - it is an ancient faith which has given much to the world. Islamic science was far ahead of European science and medicine for centuries, also mathematics.

Surely we should be asking WHY is Islam so appealing worldwide, what does it offer that other faiths apparently do not?

I say again, as in my previous post, there is NO CENTRAL HAND DIRECTING ISLAM - people are speaking for themselves in converting. Why is that not true of Christianity, outside Africa - and there, Christianity is often intolerant and fundamentalist in its expression (see the problems the Church of England is having on liberal issues).

Phil

I made no comment on them being proud or otherwise of their faith and its growth. I was purely countering Jonathan's assertion that Islam is not a growing and spreading religion.
In which particular centuries would Islamic science be "far ahead" of its European counterpart in terms of mathematics and medicine? I hope this is not based on the absurd claims for Koranic "science" explaining such things as the big bang and evolution etc. which are palpable nonsense.
As to why Islam appeals to anyone, that is a complete mystery to me but as it is of no interest or importance to me I will certainly not be losing any sleep over the matter.

[DVV]

In which particular centuries would Islamic science be "far ahead" of its European counterpart in terms of mathematics and medicine?

Encore un topos puéril et rebattu, Chris.

L'Islam, comme civilisation, a brillé aux tous premiers siècles de son existence, juste après les conquêtes, à l'époque où les musulmans étaient minoritaires dans les pays qu'ils gouvernaient. Cette fameuse science leur venait des nestoriens, des zoroastriens, des Juifs, des Grecs, dont ils avaient encore besoin. Sous les Abbassides, par exemple, tous les médecins étaient des chrétiens nestoriens.
Puis, rapidement, à force de conversions forcées, les dhimmis sont devenus rares, les sociétés se sont fermées, et cette aire de civilisation a pris, en termes de science et de culture, le retard que l'on sait.

Cheers

[Jonathan H]

Dear Chris Scott

Jonathan's assertion?

Mate, we are singing from the same hymn sheet.

I want Islamic immigration to the West halted and Iran invaded to liberate, at the least, women and others persecuted by an Intolerant ideology.

You must be thinking of somebody else on these boards with whom I disagree about everything -- thank the gods.

[Chris]

Ally

So what?

The point is that if the West (or whoever) were to go into Islamic countries, take them over by force, and ban Islam, that would be just as much a denial of human rights as anything that happens under Islam.

But I'm sure you understood my point perfectly well. Same old Ally, eh?

[Chris Scott]

Dear Chris Scott

Jonathan's assertion?

Mate, we are singing from the same hymn sheet.

I want Islamic immigration to the West halted and Iran invaded to liberate, at the least, women and others persecuted by an Intolerant ideology.

You must be thinking of somebody else on these boards with whom I disagree about everything -- thank the gods.

Agreed :-)
Apologies - this whole business has got me seething...

[Chris Scott]

Encore un topos puéril et rebattu, Chris.

L'Islam, comme civilisation, a brillé aux tous premiers siècles de son existence, juste après les conquêtes, à l'époque où les musulmans étaient minoritaires dans les pays qu'ils gouvernaient. Cette fameuse science leur venait des nestoriens, des zoroastriens, des Juifs, des Grecs, dont ils avaient encore besoin. Sous les Abbassides, par exemple, tous les médecins étaient des chrétiens nestoriens.
Puis, rapidement, à force de conversions forcées, les dhimmis sont devenus rares, les sociétés se sont fermées, et cette aire de civilisation a pris, en termes de science et de culture, le retard que l'on sait.

Cheers

Merci bien et d'accord :-)

[DVV]

But Jonathan is wrong focusing on Iran.
The Iranian islam is something "national", its aim is not to conquer the whole world, whatever may say the clown Ahmadinejad.
Sunnism is the problem.

[Robert]

The thing is, after Iran has been invaded and the women liberated, what happens to these women once the troops have gone home? They will have children that they want to keep hold of rather than see them taken away, they will be hoping to get married...I mean, they won't want to end up stoned to death or whatever.

[DVV]

The've made their islamic revolution, haven't they ?
Now it's up to them to get rid of their ayatollahs, if they want.
I'm confident they will.

[Chris Scott]

Encore un topos puéril et rebattu, Chris.

L'Islam, comme civilisation, a brillé aux tous premiers siècles de son existence, juste après les conquêtes, à l'époque où les musulmans étaient minoritaires dans les pays qu'ils gouvernaient. Cette fameuse science leur venait des nestoriens, des zoroastriens, des Juifs, des Grecs, dont ils avaient encore besoin. Sous les Abbassides, par exemple, tous les médecins étaient des chrétiens nestoriens.
Puis, rapidement, à force de conversions forcées, les dhimmis sont devenus rares, les sociétés se sont fermées, et cette aire de civilisation a pris, en termes de science et de culture, le retard que l'on sait.

Cheers

For those whose "francais" ceased at school (or earlier!) - a translation below -any errors are mine and not the original writer's!

Again this is a childish and hackneyed argument, Chris.
Islam, as a civilisation, shone during the first centuries of its existence, immediately after the conquests, during the period when the Muslims were minorities in the countries that they governed. This famous science came to them from the Nestorians, Zoroastrians and Greeks, of whom they still had need. Under the Abbasids, for example, all doctors were Nestorian Christians.
Then, rapidly, by means of forced conversions, dhimmis (non Muslims, mainly Christians and Jews) became rare, societies closed down, and this air of civilisation, in terms of science and culture, underwent the setback that we know of.

[Jonathan H]

Some of you people don't get gender-based slavery, do you?

You think most women want to live like that in these backward tyrannies?

But getting back to the Decline of the West.

What you see is the Thin End of the Wedge looming for Insertion not because of terrorism but because of democracy's cheerful ability to walk the plank into shark-infested waters, while reading a mangy, undergraduate pamphlet about how all ideologies must be cherished.

Even the Archbishop of Canterbury recently said that Sharia Law has a place in a multicultural, tolerant society ...?

[DVV]

Jonathan, are we to send troops to India too ?
Do you think it's fine to be a woman there ?
Just an example among many.
And many Iranian women did welcome Khomeyni in 1979, mind you.

Better preserve our culture in our countries.

[Robert]

It seems to me to be a general fact about societies that the one way to unite a society, even an unjust one, is to invade it, for then patriotism takes over.
People would rather be slaves under their own rulers, than free under foreign rulers.

[Smoking Joe]

It seems I am not the only so-called Bigot on this site.The truth is there for all to see,but some,for whatever reason,refuse to see it. Those who deny that any issue exists ,have but one weapon...names,be it Bigot ,Racist,or,as was posted earlier "A fanner of the flames".
One could easily imagine,any one,or all ,of these apologists quoting the words of Osama Bin Laden if they were given half a chance.
As I stated earlier,it is of no use holding up the "peaceful majority" of Muslims as a shining light. They are irrelevant,exactly as the peace loving Germans were irrelevant in the 1930/1940 era. Islam is the enemy.Not those who can see the danger of that ideology.

[DVV]

Agreed, Robert.

Agreed, Smoking Joe.

And many thanks to Chris Scott for translating my post.