Just where do we go from here?

[DVV]

Last week, in Avignon, a poor priest has been horribly beaten in the street, for no reason, by young Muslims.
Nothing on the TV news. Nothing.
Had this happened to an Imam, you would have seen big headlines, ministers would have come to Avignon, blaming racism, etc etc.

[Phil H]

The point is surely simple, even for those looking for what are, in my view, simplistic and knee-jerk reactions.

If you demonise one community or section of society, you do not solve the problem, you stoke the fire - you create new resentments, provide motivation for radicalisation and revenge.

In the main, the ethnic minority population of Britain (as with the black community in the USA) is an integral part of society. The vast majority of that minority were born here, this is their home and they have a right, under the law, to expect not to be discriminated against; to be treated equally and be respected.

You cannot eject them, and to act against a group would be to repulse ever civilised nation on the planet. North Korea may act in such ways, Britain cannot.

There are undoubtedly issues to be tackled - to me, one is the double- nationality that many have today - they live in britain, have a full part in a democratic society while rejecting that society and its values. They see the taliban and such groupd as saviours not demons. they sympathise with their wider religious group or country of origin (Bangladesh, Pakhistan; Iraq, Iran whatever).

But time will I think begin to erode that.

As was pointed out last night, there was huge confusion on the part of the supposed murderers, yesterday. In one speech one referred to our homelands, but also taked about removing OUR army. I sense not very clever, frustrated youths, seeking a cause without understanding it. Do they REALLY want to live under the Taliban or sharia law? I rather doubt it. But they are confused by the sophistication of the west, its changing morality and values.

Intolerance, simple goals and aims, the surface allure and certainty of fundamentalism, are as glittery and appealing as Nazism was to some in the 30s.

Do those who want to see reaction againt Muslim fundamentalism also agree that the same criteria should also apply to the BNP and the EDL?

Phil

[Chris Scott]

I honestly give up on our politicians, I really do.
I have watched just over an hour of coverage on the BBC News channel about the awful events in Woolwich yesterday.
Of that hour nearly 40 minutes was spent in telling us how sensitive we have to be to the fears and sensibilities of the Muslim community and how vulnerable they are feeling at the moment.
The simply don't get it, do they?
I despair, I really do - do the political class really believe that you can treat the indigenous population with this dismissive contempt and still hope that they will vote for you?
I am back to my Victorian research - at least I feel there that some progress is possible.

[Phil H]

The simply don't get it, do they?

What don't they get?

do the political class really believe that you can treat the indigenous population with this dismissive contempt and still hope that they will vote for you?

But the Muslim community IS part of the indigenous population now - don't you get that?

Whether from former "white" dominions or other colonies, the former immigrants are now third or even fourth generation British citizens now. To try to determine which are "not" in some way would be impossible even if desirable. WHICH IT IS NOT.

Please define for me what you mean by the "indigenous" population of the UK? Then justify that definition.

Our politicians, despite your apparent scorn are doing what REPRESENTATIVES should do - they are acting in the interests of ALL, not some, of the population.

The muslim population, indeed anyone with a skin other than white, must be fearful now - of a backlash against them from feeble-minded scum or organised brutes such as the EDL or the BNP. If they, with their frankly racist views are supposed to represent "British" people, heaven help us.

I genuinely would like to understand where you are coming from Chris, but your posts make it hard to see where the logic or the practicality comes in.

Phil

[Chris]

Of that hour nearly 40 minutes was spent in telling us how sensitive we have to be to the fears and sensibilities of the Muslim community and how vulnerable they are feeling at the moment.
The simply don't get it, do they?

I think they do get it, actually. There are undoubtedly people around who will try to exploit what has happened for their own political ends, by engineering some kind of vigilante backlash against the Muslim community. I'd say that avoiding that should be quite a high priority at the moment.

Perhaps you should spell out what you think the politicians should be saying instead, rather than just making cryptic comments about them "not getting it".

[Smoking Joe]

Smoking Joe

For some reason you have cut a chunk out of what I wrote, which was:
All the Muslims I know will be every bit as horrified as you or I at what happened. You should try to put yourself in the position of an ordinary Muslim, and think how they must feel when someone like you tries to make out that 'authentic Islam' is responsible for an atrocity like this.

UNQUOTE

Maybe somebody might ask The peaceful majority of Muslims(who are irrelevant as far as the whole picture is concerned,as I stated earlier) to "walk a mile in the shoes" of the victim and his family and friends.

u



Quote

But trying to make out that Muslims in general are responsible for the actions of the terrorists is absurd. It's as ridiculous as trying to make out that all Roman Catholics - or all Irish people - were responsible for the actions of the IRA.

?
UNQUOTE

I didnt say EVERY muslim was responsible for the crime.In the same way that not every German was responsible for WW2. Islam ,and the spread of it,is responsible.
Is it so difficult to see the connections between murdered children in Israel,Copts in Egypt, murderedChristians in Lebanon,Hindud in India,? Is it difficult to see the connection to an ideology that capable of altering human instinct?An ideology that can turn a mother into a launching pad of death.An ideology that is capable of making parents rave with heavenly joy after sending their children to their deaths as suicide bombers,while offering any of their still living children to the "cause".Even the Nazis didnt turn their own children into suicide bombs,and then rejoice at the death of their children ans well as the deaths of their victims.
That is the problem the civilised world has to face,not worry about if the peaceful Muslim is offended or not.

[Smoking Joe]

[QUOTE=DVV;261841]Last week, in Avignon, a poor priest has been horribly beaten in the street, for no reason, by young Muslims.
Nothing on the TV news. Nothing.
Had this happened to an Imam, you would have seen big headlines, ministers would have come to Avignon, blaming racism, etc etcU


UNQUOTE




Of course it wasnt on the news, because it would have been Anti Muslim propaganda of (to quote another ) " The worst possible kind".

[Chris]

Is it difficult to see the connection to an ideology that capable of altering human instinct?An ideology that can turn a mother into a launching pad of death.An ideology that is capable of making parents rave with heavenly joy after sending their children to their deaths as suicide bombers,while offering any of their still living children to the "cause".

You're describing the ideology of a particular terrorist organisation. You're not describing Islam.

I repeat: what you're saying makes as little sense as condemning the Roman Catholic church on the basis that the IRA terrorists were Roman Catholics.

[Phil H]

Is it so difficult to see the connections between murdered children in Israel,Copts in Egypt, murderedChristians in Lebanon,Hindud in India,?

There is a very real fissure in world affairs/culture - between the perceived immorality, economic imperialism and rampant greed of western society, and a simpler, older, more religious based concept of society. Indeed, many in the west do not see "capitalism" as altogether good, whether in terms of the impact on climate and global warming; its rejection of traditional stances on such things as same-sex marriage, abortion etc.

It is not surprising that some see that as a fundamental issue.

The Arab spring (so-called) has added to that turmoil - where should these now unsettled societies go - many are not yet ready for true democractic government. Is it surprising in a peasant society such as Egypt, poorly educated people turn on minorities as such societies have always done (in medieval Europe, the Jews)? Indeed, is it not a warning tht our reaction to terrorism should not be to turn against our minorities. we should be better than that.

Is it difficult to see the connection to an ideology that capable of altering human instinct?An ideology that can turn a mother into a launching pad of death.

The Japanese used Kamikaze pilots (suicide bombers in planes, if you will) to defend their homeland. In desperation people will do many things to protect themselves win their rights. Britain sent FEMALE agents into occupied Europe in the 40s, many of whom were sure to die, probably under torture. To these people they are engaged in what they see as a righteous war and will use every weapon to achieve their ends. No doubt Japanese and Nazis saw many of the things the Allies did as awful - not least the unleashing of the atomic bomb on mothers and children!

An ideology that is capable of making parents rave with heavenly joy after sending their children to their deaths as suicide bombers,while offering any of their still living children to the "cause".

do not families in the US and britain regard as heroes, their sons and daughters who risk their lives as Special Forces or SEALs etc?

Even the Nazis didnt turn their own children into suicide bombs,and then rejoice at the death of their children ans well as the deaths of their victims.

They put children into uniform to defend Berlin. I have mentioned Kamikaze pilots above. One of hitlers last photographed acts was to award medals to kids who were fighting in the streets around his bunker - no "celebration"?

Sorry, the picture of history you present seems to me warped to support your points - I hope I have done something to show it is nowhere near so one-sided.

Phil

[Chris]

Even the Nazis didnt turn their own children into suicide bombs,and then rejoice at the death of their children ans well as the deaths of their victims.

They put children into uniform to defend Berlin. I have mentioned Kamikaze pilots above. One of hitlers last photographed acts was to award medals to kids who were fighting in the streets around his bunker - no "celebration"?

Reading that I couldn't help thinking of Churchill's intended slogan in the event of a German invasion - "You can always take one with you".

[DVV]

There are still people who believe Ben Laden has misread the Quran and the Life of Muhammad.
How cute.

[Chris Scott]

As some seem unclear as to what I am trying to say I will attempt to explain,
By saying that our current politicians do not get it, I simply mean that I, when I vote, am doing my small bit to elect a BRITISH GOVERNMENT whose job, as far as I am concerned, is to sort out the affairs and the welbeing of the UK, not to stick their nose into every trouble spot in the world. We no longer have an Empire - thank heavens - and we are not the policeman of the world.
I will be completely frank - what happens in other places in the world is of neither interest nor importance to me and I want a UK government to sort out the ills in THIS country and not to take on international commitments that are none of our business and bring us no thanks.
I have heard time again that the world is now so much smaller and it is all a global economy and a global village and similar sanctimonious bollocks. Our involvement in any issue is a matter of CHOICE and not inevitable. many, many people in this country are utterly fed up to the back teeth with successive governments appearing to put everyone first except the people who actually live here.
I would have thought that the term indigenous population was self explanatory - let me say I include in it those who have an emotional and cultural investment in this country but of course in the current Alice in Wonderland climate even a word like indigenous is interpreted to have a racist connotation.
I will not be posting any more on this subject - those who disagree with me or fail to see what I am trying to say will never agree with me nor I with them. This whole episode has made me angrier than I have been for a very long time and I have better and more positive things to devote my time to.

[DVV]

Be blessed, Bobby Sands

[Smoking Joe]

Is it so difficult to see the connections between murdered children in Israel,Copts in Egypt, murderedChristians in Lebanon,Hindud in India,?

There is a very real fissure in world affairs/culture - between the perceived immorality, economic imperialism and rampant greed of western society, and a simpler, older, more religious based concept of society. Indeed, many in the west do not see "capitalism" as altogether good, whether in terms of the impact on climate and global warming; its rejection of traditional stances on such things as same-sex marriage, abortion etc.

It is not surprising that some see that as a fundamental issue.

The Arab spring (so-called) has added to that turmoil - where should these now unsettled societies go - many are not yet ready for true democractic government. Is it surprising in a peasant society such as Egypt, poorly educated people turn on minorities as such societies have always done (in medieval Europe, the Jews)? Indeed, is it not a warning tht our reaction to terrorism should not be to turn against our minorities. we should be better

than that. UNQUOTE






well,If some see our societies as immoral festering cesspits,thats ok....its an opinion,might even be a valid opinion. But in that case ,if our society is intolerable ,there are plenty of airports, and the road back to the Middle East is well signposted.
Why should we turn on minorities? If its a minority ,and if purely for that reason only ,then of course there is no reason.But if its a minority that commit atrocities I see no reason not to.






QUOTE
Is it difficult to see the connection to an ideology that capable of altering human instinct?An ideology that can turn a mother into a launching pad of death.




The Japanese used Kamikaze pilots (suicide bombers in planes, if you will) to defend their homeland. In desperation people will do many things to protect themselves win their rights. Britain sent FEMALE agents into occupied Europe in the 40s, many of whom were sure to die, probably under torture. To these people they are engaged in what they see as a righteous war and will use every weapon to achieve their ends. No doubt Japanese and Nazis saw many of the things the Allies did as awful - not least the unleashing of the atomic bomb on mothers and children!


UNQUOTE






As far as Im aware the Japanese didnt employ 6 year old children in their flying machines.
If you are unable to see the difference between the agendas of British Female agents in WW2and those of religious fantatics sawing off peoples heads ,then there is really no point in me explaining that to you.
Dropping a nuclear Bomb on Japan was done with the intention to end the war and save allied lives.A war ,by the way,that the Japanese began.So are you now ,not content with making a sympathetic case for jihadists,also trying to gain sympathy for our poor,misunderstood , nazi and japanese philanthropic fellow travellers from the world of 1940?You wouldnt be the first.




QUOTE
An ideology that is capable of making parents rave with heavenly joy after sending their children to their deaths as suicide bombers,while offering any of their still living children to the "cause".

do not families in the US and britain regard as heroes, their sons and daughters who risk their lives as Special Forces or SEALs etc?

Even the Nazis didnt turn their own children into suicide bombs,and then rejoice at the death of their children ans well as the deaths of their victims.

They put children into uniform to defend Berlin. I have mentioned Kamikaze pilots above. One of hitlers last photographed acts was to award medals to kids who were fighting in the streets around his bunker - no "celebration"?

Sorry, the picture of history you present seems to me warped to support your points - I hope I have done something to show it is nowhere near so one-sided.
UNQUOTE






Then to you there is no difference between mourning parents of regular soldiers regarding their dead sons/daughters (adults by the way) as "heros" and the offering up of infant children complete with sticks of plastic explosive strapped to their bodies in what is basically a tribute to Allah? not content with that,they then celebrate that event ,knowing that Allah will reserve a place for them for all eternity? Isnt there just a tiny ,even miniscule difference?And does the german army pinning medals on young germans really compare with the above?
Putting young adults into uniform isnt in quite the same league,though bad enough.So now you are offering up the example of Hitler to show that maybe these atrocities arent quite as bad as we think they are?
To the last sentence ....No you havent.....Sorry but.........

[DVV]

I'm in full agreement with Chris Scott and will not post anymore on this thread either.

If some people are convinced that "real" Muslims are those who don't follow the example and commandments of their Prophet, well, that's not my problem.

They have the right to be stupid, haven't they ?