Just where do we go from here?

[Smoking Joe]

One hears about Cahabi and salafi islam as the only extremist form of islam.All others are wonderfully moderate.Closer to the real thruth are the pictures of irrational violent actions in the wake of the Danish cartoons of Mohammad (allready mentioned in previous post) The death sentence imposed obn Salman Rushdie,the burning of embassies,the calls to butcher those who mock islam,wherever they be worldwide,warnings to the west to prepare for another holocaust.Those things and many others give us a real glimpse ito the face of the enemy.The canvas of hatred displayed comes from one source -authentic islam.And that Islam has proclaimed "intifada" on the West.Yet we pander to them, we damp down any criticism, we cant call them terrorists ,because they arent-they are fundamentalists no less. We insist that nurses may not wear crufixes if someone deems it offensive to their religion,yet we allow mosques by the cartfull to be erected.We have christians distributing christian handbills who are told by council officials to "cool it" because many Muslims live in that particular area. Its no surprise many people keep their opinions to themselves.Its not that long ago when to even question immigration policies in right circs could hget one dismissed from their job,or at very least branded a racist. Things havent changed that much.
If our governments dont take action ,death will be knocking soon on all our doors and the streets of our cities will soon resemble those of Beirut and similar places.

[Chris]

Those things and many others give us a real glimpse ito the face of the enemy.The canvas of hatred displayed comes from one source -authentic islam.And that Islam has proclaimed "intifada" on the West.

"Canvas of hatred"? I think we can see who is at work with the paintbrush at the moment.

[Smoking Joe]

Canvas of hatred"? I think we can see who is at work with the paintbrush at the moment.

UNQUOTE

Congratulations Chris you have really excelled yourself with that remark.I was not painting a canvas,I was pointing out what the "canvas" allready painted ,contained.Any "paint" that was involved consisted of issues that can easily be verified.
If you wish to point out anything in that "canvas" that was either fabricated by me....or by another artist,then please do.
Your reply serves to explain why some prefer to keep opinions to themselves. You are proving the very point you seek to deny.

[Phil H]

I wasn't aware that Islam had a single voice to say anything. There is no Pope, no Vatican for Islam.

Of course, the militants want the western democracies to react, to "persecute" Islamic and other minorities. This feeds their movements, provides recruits for their "causes" and undermines the moral position of the west.

It is the tolerance, the principles of equality and diversity (religious, political, sexual) that are widely practised in the west that the fanatics hate - they are everything that Islamic law, in its fullest sense opposes. The extremists (Al Qaeada, taliban, Iranian Ayatollahs) would ban educating women, freedom of speech, freedom of religious conviction (even to have none) freedom of the press, democratic government.

One of the apparent murderers today ranted about removing troops from "their" countries. A spokesman for some group on BBC News 24 tried to argue that British foreign policy is the cause of extremism. Where is the democracy in killing to get one's way - do what I demand or I'll kill more of you... how attractive! The point surely is that there is NO JUSTIFICATION for this kind of act. If applied to Islam why not apply it to those you don't like re health reform, abortion (it has been done) animal right, climate change etc etc??

Reacting in repressive, generalised ways is NOT the answer here. Neither is blaming whole groups (ethnic, religious, class) - Hitler tried that! Let government's start reacting against one section of society, one religious group in repressive or unequal ways, and you create the precedent for it to be used against other groups; or you feed the flames of bigotry and fanaticism by giving it fuel and a real cause shared by many more people.

I have no easy answers, but we should I am absolutely sure, stand by our well-establisghed principles of tolerance, inclusiveness, democracy and calmness in a crisis. Any other response will simply exacerbate the problem and lead to worse (if possible) atrocities.

Phil

[Smoking Joe]

Im all for Tolerance. But it seems a one way street.And I think that has caused great resentment.
Would these people demonstrate their tolerance for us if say ,A shop selling only pork products was erected on one side of a Mosque and a Womens lingerie shop on the other,and a gay club opposite?If Muslims could demonstrate the tolerance they demand of us in such a situation,one might be more sympathetic. But they wouldnt ,would they?

I fear the situation could explode and people need to calm down in that particular area. The EDL of course are just another bunch of thugs looking for something to riot about ,similar to BNP and and the anti racist movements.Nothing much seperates them .
The battle is lost Im afraid,in the coming years it will be a case of limiting the damage as much as possible.And if you can afford to emigrate then do so.....now where's that travel brochure?

[Chris]

I was not painting a canvas,I was pointing out what the "canvas" allready painted ,contained.

Nonsense. You were posting the very worst kind of anti-Muslim propaganda.

All the Muslims I know will be every bit as horrified as you or I at what happened. You should try to put yourself in the position of an ordinary Muslim, and think how they must feel when someone like you tries to make out that 'authentic Islam' is responsible for an atrocity like this.

[DVV]

How many examples do you need?

Yes, Chris.
How many examples do they need ?
If you wake them up, you're a nazi.

Good night, folks.

edit : Chris = Chris Scott

[Errata]

We should be sensitive of religions, not out of fear but out of a genuine respect for people who deal with their world in a socially acceptable way, something a lot of people don't manage to do. There are things that are unacceptable in every religion, and doing those things is considered disrespectful. So there should be no surprise when people get offended. And that's fine too. We work it out. The truth is, this isn't about religion. Never was. This is about resources. This is about centuries worth of resentment on all sides. This is about bone deep anger.

And this is war. It's something we aren't used to in the west, though other countries have lived like this for a very long time. And it was arrogant to think that we would never be involved in this kind of war. Did the guys kill this soldier because Allah told them to? Of course not. They did it because they were royally pissed off and he represented a lot of the things they resented. Sure they shouted "Allah Ackbar" but this isn't a religious thing. This is a gang thing. The mentality of these people is exactly the same as those in a street gang. There is no Islamisation of the West. They aren't interested in bringing us into the fold, they aren't interested in imposing Sharia Law on us, they don't want us saved. They want our stuff, because we flaunt it and they can't get it any other way. They have no power, they see us as having taken their power away, it doesn't help that there is a lot of truth in that view, and the only way they can regain their power is to take it from us. And historically speaking, that view isn't wrong either.

So what do we do? There's nothing we can do. If they want us, they will come after us, and nothing will stop that. We go on with our lives. Do you think Israeli's hate Muslims? They don't. They can differentiate. We can learn to do the same. The truth is that for 100 years we have lived in this complete fantasy of safety. And we've lost that. But the reality hasn't changed. It's no different now than it was 20 years ago. The rose colored glasses have simply come off. But if you examine the course of history, the more histrionic we get about being in a war we knew we were in we just thought we could keep it at arms length, the longer it will last. There is a solution, but it's not one anyone will engage in, so we wait it out. There is nothing else productive to do.

[DVV]

Oh, les idiots utiles sont de sortie.

[Errata]

Oh, les idiots utiles sont de sortie.

I was pretty sure pejoratives like "useful idiots" was judged to be poor form by the management. I mean, I don't care, but someone might.

However I can tell from the above statement that you clearly have a productive and meaningful solution to the problem, so please share. Since you have obviously divined a way for all of this to stop, don't hold out on us. Tell us the solution that no one in 1500 years has hit upon until you came along.

[Phil H]

Tolerance surely implies a sensitivity towards others whatever their race, religion, gender, sexual oruentatation etc.

I like the anaolgy of this as a "gang" crime - if these killers had shouted "Up the Weasels" as they struck, would we be saying that all the inhabitants of their council estate should be somehow responsible?

Either we value the prionciples and "values" evolved in the west - our democracy, inclusiveness, welcoming others in, our freedoms and rights or we don't.

We cannot begin to ration those out - denying some rights to this group or that, rewarding others. How would we decide, and who's to say that one month a group might be in another out? That at some time the group we perceive as belonging too might not be out.

Any solution to this problem of fundamentalism - and I agree it IS a problem - has to work within western culture and values, not resort to barbaric approaches we fought a war to stop within the lifetime of people now living.

Simplistic, knee-jerk reactions are useless and only serve to worsen the situation as well as playing into the hands of those who have that as an aim.

We have to recognise that a second or third generation Asian moslem living in Leicester, is as "British" as a blond catholic Viking-descendent who's family has lived in rural Lincolnshire for centuries. We have to see that the issues of ethnicity and religion of what are now indigenous British people are different from issues around economic immigration from Eastern Europe which can cause big problems for residents in siome areas.

Mix these issues up in a pot called immigration, propose ill-thought through, jingoistic, catch-phrases (I cannot see them as policies) as UKIP does, and we'll end up with solutions that do not address the key questions.

We surely have to work together to see our way through this, is it not the only way?
Phil

[Chris]

Yes, Chris.
How many examples do they need ?
If you wake them up, you're a nazi.

No one has called Chris a Nazi or implied that he is one.

What I questioned was his statement that meaningful discussion and criticism of Islam is somehow not allowed. For the record, I am not in favour of legislating against 'offensiveness' per se, and I think there is a danger that in the UK we are moving too far in that direction - not that that has anything to do with Islam specifically, because most of the prosecutions I've read about concern other groups or individuals.

But from what Chris has said, his concern has more to do with the fear of reprisals from extremists. Obviously it's a deplorable thing if people are intimidated by such fears from lawfully expressing their opinions. But that's very different from an official prohibition of discussion. And equally, it's not something that Muslims as a whole are responsible for (any more than they are responsible for atrocities like the one yesterday).

[Chris Scott]

"Either we value the principles and "values" evolved in the west - our democracy, inclusiveness, welcoming others in, our freedoms and rights or we don't."
Phil, the problem is not these values in themselves but the untenable and unsustainable lengths to which they have been stretched for political reasons, principally by the 13 year Labour government. Milliband has now commented more than once that the open door policy of the Labour government was a mistake. Mandelson, who was frequently at the heart of this government, now admits that the immigration policy was implemented for political and party reasons in a very calculated manner.
The result of these ill thought out and unsustainable levels of immigration has now come home to roost in terms of overstretched services and lack of integration and intercommunity resentment and violence.
I am not underestimating the baleful effect of the military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as our meddling in Libya and Syria, all of which I was totally opposed to at the time of their inception.
I would have thought that the message to ministers of any political persuasion in the UK now would have been made clear - stay completely out of the affairs of any Muslim or Islamic state, even on humanitarian grounds. It will not be welcomed and will cause us nothing but grief so no one wins.
If Muslims want us out of their countries and to stay out of their countries, I, for one, would be only too happy to oblige.

[Smoking Joe]

Nonsense. You were posting the very worst kind of anti-Muslim propaganda.

Muslim, and think how they must feel when someone like you tries to make out that 'authentic Islam' is responsible for an atrocity like this.

UNQUOTE

Again you given another example of why ordinary people are loathe in all but the most extreme situations to speak out . Anyone who does,in your eyes, is now a purveyor of anti muslim propaganda. That has been pretty much par for the course in recent years. My comment regarding authentic islam I stand by .Maybe if these people stopped butchering us ,then maybe they wouldnt be demonized quite so much.
It seems to me that you cant see the forest for the trees,maybe you cant even see the trees, I dont know.

[Chris]

Smoking Joe

For some reason you have cut a chunk out of what I wrote, which was:
All the Muslims I know will be every bit as horrified as you or I at what happened. You should try to put yourself in the position of an ordinary Muslim, and think how they must feel when someone like you tries to make out that 'authentic Islam' is responsible for an atrocity like this.

As for your comment "if these people stopped butchering us ,then maybe they wouldnt be demonized quite so much", you can demonise the terrorists as much as you like.

But trying to make out that Muslims in general are responsible for the actions of the terrorists is absurd. It's as ridiculous as trying to make out that all Roman Catholics - or all Irish people - were responsible for the actions of the IRA.