Riiight

[Herlock Sholmes]

The boy can't even answer a simple question, asked repeatedly and given days to think about it . Don't confuse the issue Mark! Because then we'd have to go into how the military forces all kinds of vaccinations on the troops and the Republicans have never pitched a single fit, and what's the big whoop now, and that's a whole spiral about the single issue politics of perception. And then we'd have to go into how the police and fire department and libraries (which actually Republicans are now also shockingly against, they love nothing better than a uneducated populace, see above) are socialism, and free paved roads and why should my tax dollars pay for your neighborhood street to be paved, I don't drive on it, all maintained by the government, all socialism.

And now he's going to answer your question with random blather instead of addressing the question he's been dodging for days:

Celee,

Do you think that Nazi Eugenics are an example of Socialized Medicine? Yes or no. Really simple, question, really puzzling why you can't just answer it. For days.

It’s reminiscent of the tactic that was used by many to denigrate Darwin’s research and findings.

[Svensson]

"You are correct it is not the official party platform. However, the majority of the leaders in the Democrat Party were referring to themselves as Democrat socialists.I am glad to hear they changed their label to social Democrats. That makes them sound friendly. Biden came out today claiming to be a capitalist. I bet none of you even bothered to watch Biden's press conference. Can you explain to me what a social Democrat is compared to a democrat socialist? I have asked you multiple times and you never answer. What do you like about the American Democrat Party?"

Tbh, I don't know what a democratic socialist is, it is a term I have never heard but I do know what a social democrat is because we have social democrat parties in Europe. The are usually all for a well-regulated capitalism model coupled with protecting worker's rights and state subsidised support for families via childcare options and other infrastructure that makes life a little easier for those ho do NOT happen to earn 100k USD a year or more (places like Monaco and Brunei aside, that is the case in most countries). The new German Chancellor Olaf Schröder is actually a Social Democrat and he was able to form a government with the Liberal Democrats (fee market capitalists) and the german Green Party.

the US democratic party is essentially where the European right is. Both advocate for healthcare for all, renewable energy, phasing out combustion engines over the next 20 years and building public transport options, free or cheap childcare (the UK is a bit of an outlier here), sick pay, parental leave, LGBTQ rights, gun-regulation, pro-choice and a fair asylum process. None of these issues are controversial here. All of these policy positions were either introduced or supported by the vast majority of European Centre Right governments.

So by your definition of the democratic party, we have have been living in a radical left-wing socialist society for decades in Europe. But I can tell you that this is not the case. Living standards are high, we have higher levels of social justice and social mobility and we have less crime than the US. There is plenty of private business around here (which is not permitted in a truly socialist society).

The foxhole's "radical socialist" boogeyman does not exist.

[Ally]

The boy can't even answer a simple question, asked repeatedly and given days to think about it . Don't confuse the issue Mark! Because then we'd have to go into how the military forces all kinds of vaccinations on the troops and the Republicans have never pitched a single fit, and what's the big whoop now, and that's a whole spiral about the single issue politics of perception. And then we'd have to go into how the police and fire department and libraries (which actually Republicans are now also shockingly against, they love nothing better than a uneducated populace, see above) are socialism, and free paved roads and why should my tax dollars pay for your neighborhood street to be paved, I don't drive on it, all maintained by the government, all socialism.

And now he's going to answer your question with random blather instead of addressing the question he's been dodging for days:

Celee,

Do you think that Nazi Eugenics are an example of Socialized Medicine? Yes or no. Really simple, question, really puzzling why you can't just answer it. For days.

[Mark J D]

Do you think that Nazi Eugenics are an example of Socialized Medicine?

-- An equally worthwhile question might be 'Do you think that the care offered to members of the US military is an example of Socialized Medicine?'

Because *it is*.

M.

[Ally]

Blah, blah blah, dodge, deflect dodge, more blather refusing to answer a direct question, even after saying that he would, blah blah....(paraphrased)

Do you think that Nazi Eugenics are an example of Socialized Medicine?

[celee]

Yeah, yeah there's always an excuse when you do it and you're always justified. Huge difference between saying someone is dumb, and saying someone is boring. MASSIVE difference. Second verse, same as the first. Did you ever consider the discussions are the same because you refuse to actually address the points that are raised and just keep repeating the same nonsense about how everyone else just wants to argue, and yet we keep trying to get you to ANSWER a freaking question and you keep dodging and ducking and dancing and diving?

Svenn you cannot see the difference? I do not know you. You might be fun at parties a real hoot. This discussion is boring. We have discussed socialism. However, I do not even know what your opinion of socialism is. You just reject mine. We are not going to change our minds. So why continue.

First of all, it's not the party platform but I am assuming you are referring to Sanders and AOC. If you are, then you will be pleased to know that they identify as Social democrats, not socialists

You are correct it is not the official party platform. However, the majority of the leaders in the Democrat Party were referring to themselves as Democrat socialists.I am glad to hear they changed their label to social Democrats. That makes them sound friendly. Biden came out today claiming to be a capitalist. I bet none of you even bothered to watch Biden's press conference. Can you explain to me what a social Democrat is compared to a democrat socialist? I have asked you multiple times and you never answer. What do you like about the American Democrat Party?

Did you ever consider the discussions are the same because you refuse to actually address the points?

No, because I have tried to express my thoughts on socialism and my concerns in a previous post and you ignore the comment. So, I feel I have done all I can to discuss the topic with you. The pure definition of socialism is brilliant in theory it is the way to go in my OPINION. However, in practice it sucks. Government overreach and corruption ruin everything.

[Ally]

Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: Of course (LAUGH) not. What we have in mind— and what of my— and my policies most closely re— resemble what we see in the U.K., in Norway, in Finland, in Sweden.

It is fascinating to me, just as a general principle how most of the RedHats in this country absolutely refuse to acknowledge or believe that there are functional and well run Socialistic countries in the world.

I'm not even a Socialist, and yet I acknowledge there are socialist countries that have a far superior standard of living for the average citizen and most countries that report having the happiest citizens skew towards socialist. America has a real disconnect between perception and reality.

I blame shitty education. Book learning, who needs it. We've got nonstop cable news.

[Svensson]

They Identify themselves as Democrat Socialists. Leaders in the Democrat Party admit they are socialist.

Not correct. First of all, it's not the party platform but I am assuming you are referring to Sanders and AOC. If you are, then you will be pleased to know that they identify as Social democrats, not socialists. Believe it or not, this is a world of difference. Essentially, they advocate for well-regulated capitalism with a social security net and support for families with children though free or subsidised child-care and other infrastructure to ease some of the stress of having small kids.. Almost all European countries have a social democratic society.

from a 2019 interview with Andreson Cooper:

Anderson Cooper: When people hear the word socialism, they think Soviet Union, Cuba, Venezuela. Is that what you have in mind?

Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: Of course (LAUGH) not. What we have in mind— and what of my— and my policies most closely re— resemble what we see in the U.K., in Norway, in Finland, in Sweden.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-the-rookie-congresswoman-challenging-the-democratic-establishment-60-minutes-interview-full-transcript-2019-01-06/

so you see, you can relax again.

[Ally]

There is a big difference pointing out that someone's discussion is getting boring and insulting their intelligence, and calling them names. I enjoy Svenn he/or she is reasonably polite but the discussions are the same. They have been for a year. It seems all anyone, you included, wants to do is argue. Look at you chiming back in to argue. It is constant. This has been going on for days and I am to blame for taking part in such a discussion.

Yeah, yeah there's always an excuse when you do it and you're always justified. Huge difference between saying someone is dumb, and saying someone is boring. MASSIVE difference. Second verse, same as the first. Did you ever consider the discussions are the same because you refuse to actually address the points that are raised and just keep repeating the same nonsense about how everyone else just wants to argue, and yet we keep trying to get you to ANSWER a freaking question and you keep dodging and ducking and dancing and diving?

So Celee, Do you think Nazi Eugenics are an example of Socialized medicine?

[celee]

There is a big difference pointing out that someone's discussion is getting boring and insulting their intelligence, and calling them names. I enjoy Svenn he/or she is reasonably polite but the discussions are the same. They have been for a year. It seems all anyone, you included, wants to do is argue. Look at you chiming back in to argue. It is constant. This has been going on for days and I am to blame for taking part in such a discussion.

[Ally]

You are boring SVENN.

Apparently it is okay for Celee to insult anyone and everyone he disagrees with, but he sure does take umbrage when it's done to him. Tsk. And Svenn didn't even insult him *OR* use any of the naughty words. He didn't call him a hypocritcal ******* dumbass, or a bloviating fascist ****wit or ANYTHING to deserve such ad hominem. Tsk.

I mean Celee, attacking me, I get. I'm a proud abuser and cursing *******. But Svenn's been really nice and patient to you. You should apologize. Tsk, tsk.

[celee]

I also noticed that you still refer to the Democratic party as "socialist" even though I have provided a definition of Socialism, and asked you to provide an example of the democratic party that meets the definition of socialism. You haven't provided one, probably because there isn't one but you chose to use inaccurate labels nevertheles

They Identify themselves as Democrat Socialists. Leaders in the Democrat Party admit they are socialist. BLM founders admit they are Marxist. What are you not understanding? I answered your questions. You never answer mine. I think it would be interesting to read what you like about the American Democrat Party. The definition of socialism is great. It is people that destroy economic systems.

So celee, I'm doing my damn hardest to quote primary sources or with direct quotes, precisely to pre-empt you disregarding a source for perceived bias. But let's bear in mind that a quote from what you perceive a left-wing bias is automatically disqualified but very often actually there is a high standard of journalism associated with.

You dismiss anything FOX News, NewsMax or OANN you are kind of limiting my ability to provide sources. I would not consider Mary Sue a primary news source. We have discussed politics for almost a year. I am not going to change your mind you are not going to change my mind. Cannot we agree to disagree? It does not matter what source I post you are going to not accept it. You just want to argue.

You are boring SVENN.

[Ally]

Did you just ask an actually reasonable question without insult or foul language? There is an adult somewhere inside of you.

So I'm confused, are you the only one who is allowed to insult people on the thread? Or do you just hypocritically have a problem when I do it? I mean if you're going to hold me to a behavioral standard, seems like you should at the very least model it yourself. Or is this one of these do as I say, not as I do situations?

I answered your question in a previous post to Svenn.

No, you didn't.

I discussed socialism how I felt about it and why I think that in theory, it is the best economic system.

Ah. You think it's the best economic system in theory, but you don't want to actually try it out and insult Democats for promoting it. That's.... interesting.

I also explained why I feel it fails.

Yes, but then you never respond to any counter-points and ignore them. For instance, let's look at your explanations:

"However, when the government gets involved and starts telling people they can't take this medication and they have to take this shot. When the government decides a person is too old to receive a lifesaving procedure and assistant suicide becomes a viable health care option.

It was then countered, what's the difference between the government and insurance company doing this? Do you know how much insurance companies have control over medical decisions in this country? Do you know how many people die every year because they are denied medical procedures that could save their life, or because they can't afford basic health care? Do you know about how insurance screws people over, time and time again, denying coverage, denying claims? Not to mention the pharmaceutical companies and the blatant price gouging they engage in and the ridiculous pricing of hospitals who charge 100 bucks for a shot of Benadryl.

What exactly do you see as the difference between a "government" entity having complete control over a person's basic health care and a Corporation that's in it for profit? The government has a vested interest in an overall healthy population. The corporation only cares about you as a profit driven data set. What's the fundamental difference? You think a corporation is a better controller of your basic health than a government? Why? Haven't answered that. But of course that's a complex question with complex cause and effect scenarios, and so far, I can't get you to answer a simple yes or no. Like....

The answer to your question should be obvious.

Then it should be really easy to provide. Do you think Nazis Eugenics are a result of socialized medicine?

I will answer your question since you asked it politely, but I will not answer your question without explaining my answer. I am working now. When I get time.

I can't wait. I'm sure it will be a fascinating read.

[Svensson]

Yes, well when someone does not agree with you they are a right-wing extremist. Well, you are a left-wing nut. You probably read just the first paragraph and stopped. because the article discusses social medicine and the Nazi eugenics programs. I have noticed reading comprehension is something you have a problem with.

Let's see. I cant reverence FOX News. I cannot reverence NewsMax. I can only use left-wing bias sources that you agree with. .

So celee, I'm doing my damn hardest to quote primary sources or with direct quotes, precisely to pre-empt you disregarding a source for perceived bias. But let's bear in mind that a quote from what you perceive a left-wing bias is automatically disqualified but very often actually there is a high standard of journalism associated with it.

Anyways, on the link you provided. Yes, I read it and I got to paragraph 4 when the author wrote "And yet the NHS also shows how a national socialist medical system is able to deny care and even kill." which is where accute giga-cringe prevented me from reading further. the author then made the leap from the case of the 1-year-old boy who was denied experimental treatment to Nazi Eugenics.

First of all, I think it was Ally who made the case that Children have rights. they have the right to be protected from parents. Parents do not have absolute rights over their children. This is a well established legal principle beyond dispute. BEYOND DISPUTE. So, following on from that there are times the state needs to step in and protect the child from the actions of a parent. Again this is nothing unusual. I mean, you do have Child Protection Agency in the US that can take a child into care against the will of the parent when the parent is abusive, right? This is the same principle. However, I do not believe you compare the Child Protection Agency to the German equivalent in the Third Reich.

And then secondly, Eugenics is to kill an individual because its VIABLE life is inconvenient due to ideology, cost or other issues in caring for that person. This has nothing to do with refusing treatment to a case that by all accounts is terminal and hopeless. The attempted equivalence does not stack up and is actually quite offensive. Just like comparing the NHS itself to the Nazis.

btw, what is that constant obsession by the american right with Nazis?

I also noticed that you still refer to the Democratic party as "socialist" even though I have provided a definition of Socialism, and asked you to provide an example of the democratic party that meets the definition of socialism. You haven't provided one, probably because there isn't one but you chose to use inaccurate labels nevertheless.

Finally, you use examples of rare and extreme cases to suggest that current European Health Care is comparable to Nazi Eugenics. I on the other hand suggest that 26,000 deaths of people due to lack of adequate and basic health care diying in the US every year (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2323087/) is a sign that your health care solution is not fit for purpose. We don't have these kind of problems in modern Europe.

Cheers.

[celee]

Do you argue that eugenic policies was a product of socialized medicine or not? If not, why are you posting a link to it? You say other people have reading comprehension problems, perhaps you should examine what you're actually saying and see why that is.

Did you just ask an actually reasonable question without insult or foul language? There is an adult somewhere inside of you.

I do not wish to have a discussion with you and I answered your question in a previous post to Svenn. I discussed socialism how I felt about it and why I think that in theory, it is the best economic system. I also explained why I feel it fails. Some of the comments on this thread support my opinion. You wish to argue. I do not. The answer to your question should be obvious.

I will answer your question since you asked it politely, but I will not answer your question without explaining my answer. I am working now. When I get time.