Kosminskical Thoughts

[Wickerman]

According to Pall Mall Gazette in 1895 Swanson believes the suspect was dead. So does that mean he believes it was Druitt or Koz at that time?

We've had debates where proponents of both suspects claim that article as evidence.

In his marginalia he is under the impression Koz is long dead.

It is very odd that a the only man who was across all stakeholders should make such strange mistakes in marginalia that he wrote to himself. Swanson is the one officer I’d rely on having all the facts from that time. The motivation for writing the marginalia still baffles me, especially for him to be so wrong with the detail. I strongly believe Anderson was led by Swanson in the first place.

I thought this article was quite interesting:

https://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-andr.html

The marginalia, like most of the memoirs was written decades after the events referred to. Whether we read the memoirs or later writings of Smith, Anderson or Macnaghten, we still find errors. As the marginalia had to be written at least 22 yrs, possibly longer after 1888, then I can't imagine why it would be free of errors.
Swanson had to have written the marginalia between 1910 & 1924, he retired in 1903.
What we cannot know is whether the marginalia are Swanson's own recollections, or the recollections of Anderson who related them to Swanson sometime after they both retired.

[Abby Normal]

We've had debates where proponents of both suspects claim that article as evidence.




The marginalia, like most of the memoirs was written decades after the events referred to. Whether we read the memoirs or later writings of Smith, Anderson or Macnaghten, we still find errors. As the marginalia had to be written at least 22 yrs, possibly longer after 1888, then I can't imagine why it would be free of errors.
Swanson had to have written the marginalia between 1910 & 1924, he retired in 1903.
What we cannot know is whether the marginalia are Swanson's own recollections, or the recollections of Anderson who related them to Swanson sometime after they both retired.

hi wick
Its swanson own recollections. he uses the word we. and by using the phrase-and suspect knew he was identified- twice, its pretty clear hes giving his own interpretation.

[Joshua Rogan]

Have you ever made notes on a subject in a book?
I have done, especially with Stewart's Ultimate. Some details I've learned on Casebook I've scribbled in a margin on a relevant page.

Did you also sign your initials after making your marginal comments?

[rjpalmer]

hi wick
Its swanson own recollections. he uses the word we. and by using the phrase-and suspect knew he was identified- twice, its pretty clear hes giving his own interpretation.

If I could, I'd buy you an ice cream cone, Abby.

Anderson was a macro-manager. He's not going around investigating crimes. There's nothing he could have told Swanson about the case that Swanson didn't already know. It's not how organizations like Scotland Yard work.

The idea that Anderson gave information to Swanson about the murders is like suggesting the owner-manager of Manchester United could tell the team manager, Ole Gunnar Solskjaer, something useful about football. Not likely.

The situation with Druitt is somewhat different, because Macnaghten is claiming that he had 'private information' that was not part of an official police inquiry.

[Wickerman]

hi wick
Its swanson own recollections. he uses the word we. and by using the phrase-and suspect knew he was identified- twice, its pretty clear hes giving his own interpretation.

Sorry to disagree Abby, but I see no "we" anywhere in the footnotes or on page 138.
He does say "sent by us", but "us" could simply mean "police".

I'm looking at the version in the Ultimate on pg 635.

[Wickerman]

Did you also sign your initials after making your marginal comments?

No, good point, but then I have not spent a lifetime signing every document I read.
Was that just habit?

[Abby Normal]

Sorry to disagree Abby, but I see no "we" anywhere in the footnotes or on page 138.
He does say "sent by us", but "us" could simply mean "police".

I'm looking at the version in the Ultimate on pg 635.

hi wick
sorry meant to say us. but its the same thing. yes he could have been talking about the police in general, but taken in context and with the other statements ..and he knew he was ided... seems hes talking about his own recollections, and that he also thought koz was the ripper. but im sure thats still heavily influenced by his loyalty to his dear old master. IMHO of course.

[Wickerman]

Anderson was a macro-manager. He's not going around investigating crimes. There's nothing he could have told Swanson about the case that Swanson didn't already know. It's not how organizations like Scotland Yard work.

The idea that Anderson gave information to Swanson about the murders is like suggesting the owner-manager of Manchester United could tell the team manager, Ole Gunnar Solskjaer, something useful about football. Not likely.

In general I do agree, Anderson was normally at arms length from the day to day activities of the Investigation department. But the marginalia doesn't suggest Anderson investigated anything. To me at least, Swanson's words only suggests he might have taken a personal interest in that one suspect.
Did he show up at the Seaside/Seaman's Home, like he showed up at Millers Court, like he showed up at Swallow Gardens (Coles)?
It might look to some like I'm defending Anderson again, the realities are he did get involved and he did meet face to face with detectives and those who have first-hand knowledge.

[Darryl Kenyon]

The comments in the Pall Mall attributed to Swanson [ remember Swanson was opposed to public reminisces and it is unlikely this was a full on interview ], are from May 1895 .
In the Colney Hatch registry of patients Kosminski is listed as patient 11,190, Date of admission 7 Feb 1891. At the end of the notes is date of discharge, removal or death 19 April 1894.
I think it is likely the police would have asked the asylum to keep them informed if he was ever discharged. But did they inform them when he was transferred ?
Perhaps Swanson or someone made enquires sometime 94/95 only to find that Kosminski was no longer there. There may have been some confusion in the records [ this is an age before computers etc ], and Swanson or whoever assumed Kosminski had died.
Regards Darryl

[Wickerman]

... seems hes talking about his own recollections, and that he also thought koz was the ripper......

Hi Abby.

Well, RJ raised a good point, both these officials (Swanson & Anderson) had to know what occurred.

Info certainly ran up the pipe, not down. So everything that crossed Swanson's desk while he was in that position (from 1888 to 1892?) should eventually reach Anderson if it was important enough.
If I recall, the case was closed in 1892?

At some point in 1896 Swanson was promoted to Superintendent, so was he still in the loop after 1896?

Whether Swanson was in a position to know all about the ID, and in what year did it occur?, those marginal notes have always suggested to me that Swanson is noting down what Anderson believes, not what he believed himself.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Hi Abby.

Well, RJ raised a good point, both these officials (Swanson & Anderson) had to know what occurred.

Info certainly ran up the pipe, not down. So everything that crossed Swanson's desk while he was in that position (from 1888 to 1892?) should eventually reach Anderson if it was important enough.
If I recall, the case was closed in 1892?

At some point in 1896 Swanson was promoted to Superintendent, so was he still in the loop after 1896?

Whether Swanson was in a position to know all about the ID, and in what year did it occur?, those marginal notes have always suggested to me that Swanson is noting down what Anderson believes, not what he believed himself.

Hi Wick
As far as I am aware Anderson never said he thought that Kosminski was dead or died shortly after he was confined. That doesn't mean he didn't of course, but ? Also in the lighter side Anderson states that Kosminski was identified after he was caged in an asylum. Swanson in his notes says before. If he was following Anderson's beliefs wouldn't he have said afterwards as well ?
Regards Darryl

[clark2710]

Also remember he would have been writing to himself. Would there be any reason to lie to himself about anything in the marginalia notes??

I am going to take a little liberty in playing the devil's advocate here and say that if he wrote with the idea that his writings would survive him then he may put some red herrings in the margins for one reason or another. I mean after all a secret is a secret; yes?

[Ms Diddles]

I am going to take a little liberty in playing the devil's advocate here and say that if he wrote with the idea that his writings would survive him then he may put some red herrings in the margins for one reason or another. I mean after all a secret is a secret; yes?

Equally, he could have felt motivated to leave a genuine hint just for posterity.

I'm taking a liberty here too, admittedly!

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Abby.

Well, RJ raised a good point, both these officials (Swanson & Anderson) had to know what occurred.

Info certainly ran up the pipe, not down. So everything that crossed Swanson's desk while he was in that position (from 1888 to 1892?) should eventually reach Anderson if it was important enough.
If I recall, the case was closed in 1892?

At some point in 1896 Swanson was promoted to Superintendent, so was he still in the loop after 1896?

Whether Swanson was in a position to know all about the ID, and in what year did it occur?, those marginal notes have always suggested to me that Swanson is noting down what Anderson believes, not what he believed himself.

Macnaghten was Swansons immediate superior so if Swanson was involved in what he says he was,namely the mythical ID parade, how come Macnaghten didnt make mention of it in the memo after all he does make mention of someone called Kozminski, and in the second version he again makes mention of Kozminski, only this time he eliminates him for further suspicion

So is the marginalia safe to rely on? In my opinion no!!!!!!

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[clark2710]

Equally, he could have felt motivated to leave a genuine hint just for posterity.

I'm taking a liberty here too, admittedly!

lol indeed so how do we tell?