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  • #61
    Originally posted by clark2710 View Post

    lol indeed so how do we tell?
    Ha!

    We don't!

    We contemplate it, debate it, build theories around it and pontificate about it for the next 130+ years!!!

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

      Macnaghten was Swansons immediate superior so if Swanson was involved in what he says he was,...
      Well, he doesn't say he was. He could have been, but so could Anderson.

      As I've pointed out already, Anderson was known to show up at crime scene's, so we can't rule out him showing a personal interest at this I.D.. Swanson could be filling in details that he had read about in memo's which crossed that desk, or learned in conversation with Anderson in their retirement years.

      Macnaghten joined in June of 1889 as Assistant Chief Constable, and if Chief Inspector Swanson stayed in his position until the case was 'closed' in 1892, then both were in a position to know. Because, it was in Feb. of 1891 when Kozminski was readmitted to the workhouse, and subsequently certified insane by Edmund Houchin, whom we think sent him to Colney Hatch.
      So, this I.D. must have taken place after July 1890, when Koz. was first brought to Mile End Workhouse.
      Kozminski was at this workhouse for four days, being discharged on 15 July.
      Our best guess can only be that this four day period is when the I.D. took place.
      On the 15th, he was "returned to his brothers house", as both the official records, and the marginalia, make clear.

      ... how come Macnaghten didnt make mention of it in the memo after all he does make mention of someone called Kozminski, and in the second version he again makes mention of Kozminski, only this time he eliminates him for further suspicion.

      That's not sufficient cause to claim the I.D. never happened. I'm well aware these reminiscences can be faulty but to claim something has been invented which never happened is wholly unjustified. Dates & places may be incorrect, but that is to be expected. It's an entirely different matter to claim the I.D. was a total invention.
      Regards, Jon S.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

        Well, he doesn't say he was. He could have been, but so could Anderson.

        As I've pointed out already, Anderson was known to show up at crime scene's, so we can't rule out him showing a personal interest at this I.D.. Swanson could be filling in details that he had read about in memo's which crossed that desk, or learned in conversation with Anderson in their retirement years.

        Macnaghten joined in June of 1889 as Assistant Chief Constable, and if Chief Inspector Swanson stayed in his position until the case was 'closed' in 1892, then both were in a position to know. Because, it was in Feb. of 1891 when Kozminski was readmitted to the workhouse, and subsequently certified insane by Edmund Houchin, whom we think sent him to Colney Hatch.
        So, this I.D. must have taken place after July 1890, when Koz. was first brought to Mile End Workhouse.
        Kozminski was at this workhouse for four days, being discharged on 15 July.
        Our best guess can only be that this four day period is when the I.D. took place.
        On the 15th, he was "returned to his brothers house", as both the official records, and the marginalia, make clear.

        Stop guessing lets stick with the facts

        You have to look at the chain of command to see if Mcnaghten should or could have known about this mythical ID parade

        1889 : Jun - Appointed Assistant Chief Constable (CID).

        1890 : Promoted to Chief Constable (CID).

        1903 : Promoted to Assistant Commissioner (CID). He was to become the first Assistant Commisioner to personally arrest a burglar.

        So from 1889 to 1903 he was an importnat figure within the criminal investigation dept

        All of the above ranks are superior to Swansons rank and would put Macnagthen front and centre of the investigation and all developments, so there is no reason to suggest that such an important alleged development as this mythical ID parade would have passed Macngahten unnoticed.

        The marginalia mentions the suspect being watcehd by the City police, that doesnt add up. if this ID parade had taken place and was orchestrated by the Met, why did they then allow the City police to then watch a house which was in the mets jurisdiction?

        Major Smith makes no mention of this event

        Another point is that if a person is under a mental health order in a mental institution would the police have got permission to go along and take him out for the day to put him on an ID parade I doubt that happening

        How come we see no referneces to such an identification mentioned by any other senior officers who were involved in the case, surely such an important development would have spread like wildfire amongst the CID officers.


        That's not sufficient cause to claim the I.D. never happened. I'm well aware these reminiscences can be faulty but to claim something has been invented which never happened is wholly unjustified. Dates & places may be incorrect, but that is to be expected. It's an entirely different matter to claim the I.D. was a total invention.
        There is every reason to suggest the ID parade did not happen as is written in the marginalia.

        www.trevormarriott.co.uk



        Comment


        • #64
          Thus far there is no way to square real life events with those advanced by Anderson, Macnaghten or the Swanson marginalia and endpaper notes.
          Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

          Comment


          • #65
            I know Simon, it's impossible. I don't know why people even try. I gave it up long ago.

            Comment


            • #66
              Hi Scott,

              There's no accounting for folk.

              I guess people enjoy turning mental backflips and twisting logic into pretzel knots.

              Stay safe.

              Simon
              Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

              Comment


              • #67
                Interesting that Swanson and Anderson were the signatories on the naturalisation forms for Isaac Abrahams, otherwise known as Isaac Kosminski - brother of Aaron. As far as I’m aware the Naturalization Act of 1870 did not require your local police to approve the initial application, so I can only assume they approved the background check. Which I would also assume took place. A background check that would have likely taken them to the street they may have had under surveillance of Aaron at one time.

                Another quirk of circumstance I’m sure.
                Last edited by erobitha; 05-03-2021, 08:40 AM.
                "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
                - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Ms Diddles View Post

                  Ha!

                  We don't!

                  We contemplate it, debate it, build theories around it and pontificate about it for the next 130+ years!!!
                  LOL

                  Ms. Diddles at the gates of Heaven walking in: st. peter: do you have any questions? Ms. D: ok who was Jack the Ripper? It's driving me crazy! St. Peter: shows Ms. D. Ms. D: who the heck is that? Was he on the suspect list? St. Peter: +smiles+

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by clark2710 View Post

                    LOL

                    Ms. Diddles at the gates of Heaven walking in: st. peter: do you have any questions? Ms. D: ok who was Jack the Ripper? It's driving me crazy! St. Peter: shows Ms. D. Ms. D: who the heck is that? Was he on the suspect list? St. Peter: +smiles+
                    Nice one, Clark!


                    I can see that you've been checking out Donald Rumbelow.

                    That's a far better starting point than any of that Baphomet nonsense!

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Ms Diddles View Post

                      Nice one, Clark!


                      I can see that you've been checking out Donald Rumbelow.

                      That's a far better starting point than any of that Baphomet nonsense!
                      i thought that'd make you smile

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by clark2710 View Post

                        i thought that'd make you smile
                        It certainly did, Clark!

                        The very thought that I'd make it anywhere near the pearly gates amused me greatly!
                        Last edited by Ms Diddles; 05-04-2021, 07:45 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          The naturalisation forms for Isaac Abrahams were signed in 1901.

                          I guess by this time Swanson and Anderson hadn't figured out that his brother, Aaron, was the Ripper.

                          Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
                            The naturalisation forms for Isaac Abrahams were signed in 1901.

                            I guess by this time Swanson and Anderson hadn't figured out that his brother, Aaron, was the Ripper.
                            That quirk of coincidence is a funny thing.
                            "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
                            - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Well, it makes me laugh.
                              Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
                                The naturalisation forms for Isaac Abrahams were signed in 1901.

                                I guess by this time Swanson and Anderson hadn't figured out that his brother, Aaron, was the Ripper.
                                Can anyone refresh my memory? Who signed Joseph Lawende's naturalization papers in April 1889?

                                Comment

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