Connecticut School Shooting

[Cogidubnus]

Distinctions

I have very mixed views on this issue...on the one hand, if I wake up in the night and there's someone in my house, then he's mine...that, as far as I'm concerned, defines a very reasonable right to self defence (though the law as it applies in the UK may not agree)...

But on the other hand the "right to bear arms" as it seems to apply across much of the US appalls me...why not (as an initial measure) prohibit the possession within homes of all but handguns? You could then make sensible provision for rifles (perhaps within recognised marksmanship clubs) and shotguns (specially licensed users like farmers?)...

Let's get this straight...no private citizen NEEDs a semi automatic weapon...no farmer NEEDS a machine gun...these are weapons of offence not defence. In a modern society, even a rifle isn't a weapon of defence...

I think Dale speaks a good deal of common sense in his post above

All the best

Dave

[Ally]

Hello Ally!

Interesting view of yours to ask this kind of question from the relatives. Have you ever heard about tactfulness?

Have you heard about not entering someone's private home without an invitation?

And if someone doesn't knock, you have the right to gun him down?

If they walk into my house and I haven't granted them access, yes.

[Fleetwood Mac]

The poster to whom I was responding (Fleetwood Mac) suggested we in the Uk are all brainwashed. I was making the point that Fox news controls virtually all of the Tv news in America. I was not suggesting people do not have access to other sources, just that there is just as much chance of Americans being 'brainwashed' by the media or the state as there is in the UK.

All people are susceptible to propaganda and all governments lie to the people at times.

I wasn't talking about the odd government department set up to convince the Americans that The Sandinistas were the Mongol Hordes coming to eat their babies.

I was talking about a fundamental principle: the government is there for national defence and justice, but not to keep you safe and resolve all of your disputes, e.g. when someone enters your home illegally. If you think only the government can keep you safe then the ramifications of this are widespread beyond mere incidents of burglary.

You can have all the Fox News and BBC arguments in the world, but they are meaningless by comparison with the fundamental principle mentioned above. And, that's why I say the Americans hold far more poilitical acumen - they certainly are as susceptible to propaganda as we are - but to their credit they understand the bigger picture more than we do.

So, you can argue all you want about Fox News and all the packaging that any sensible person is not remotely interested in, but when push comes to shove they have the thing that really matters right and we don't (as a group).

[j.r-ahde]

Have you heard about not entering someone's private home without an invitation?



If they walk into my house and I haven't granted them access, yes.

Still asking the following: is it polite to ask "did he knock?" after this kind of thing?

The houseowner got 5 years for manslaughter and I find it justified.

And still finding unjustified to gun down an innocent plumber as "an intruder".

All the best
Jukka

[Ally]

Swear to god, it was not marked. No fence, no string, no signs, about 10 acres of undeveloped land. It's not like we were in his yard. We couldn't even see the house. We were on his land. In fact, guy on the left of the ranger station clearly had his land marked as the park. Cops could make him put a string up to mark the bounds of his property, but didn't even suggest that hey maybe don't shoot at kids unless they get actually somewhere near the part you actually inhabit.

So here's the basic gist. It's late at night. By your own admission you are sneaking around someplace you have no business being. But because you are just "dumb kids" (and just out of curiosity, how old is a kid? Six? Seven? Or are we talking teenagers here? Because teenagers never commit burglaries or crime we all know this) a homeowner is supposed to know that the gang of people on his yard, in the middle of the night, where they are not supposed to be, have friendly intentions and are just trespassing and going where they are not supposed to be going for completely innocent purposes?

Maybe he should wait til y'all get right up to his house to shoot you. Maybe you all shouldn't be sneaking around in the middle of night and trespassing. But as you pointed out, no one has the right to expect safety, so why precisely should you expect to be safe when you are out sneaking into places you know you are not supposed to be going to?

[Ally]

Still asking the following: is it polite to ask "did he knock?" after this kind of thing?

The houseowner got 5 years for manslaughter and I find it justified.

And still finding unjustified to gun down an innocent plumber as "an intruder".

All the best
Jukka

So I am guessing the answer is no. The plumber didnt knock and an innocent homeowner went to prison because an imbecikic plumber had his head too far up his ass to do the intelligent thing and knock.

[j.r-ahde]

So I am guessing the answer is no. The plumber didnt knock and an innocent homeowner went to prison because an imbecikic plumber had his head too far up his ass to do the intelligent thing and knock.

Hello Ally!

Since you find, that this plumber TRUSTED this homeowner to REMEMBER his agreements,HE WAS IMBECIL.

Unfortunately I have to say; I have dreamt of having a script published n America someday. Since there seem to be AMORAL MORONS like you, who justify any kind of shooting BECAUSE OF PROTECTION, I wish that I will never have a script published in America. Only to be safe from FASCISTS like you.

All the best
Jukka

[RivkahChaya]

So, if I understand the sequence of events, the homeowner called a plumber, left the door unlocked, the plumber let himself in through the unlocked door, and then the homeowner, without calling out and asking the unknown person to identify himself, just shot him?

Is there a cite here? Was this rented space, and did the landlord fail to properly notify the tenant of entrance by maintenance, or something? The idea that you would fail to lock your door, then shoot someone who walks in is beyond idiotic, because mistakes happen. The person could have walked into the wrong apartment, and not realized it, since the door was unlocked, and, you know, he was expecting to find an unlocked door. I know a lot of people who leave their doors unlocked when they are expecting someone, whether it's a delivery, or company.

Even in states where you are allowed to shoot intruders (Texas and Louisiana, IIRC) with more or less impunity, you have to say something to them first, along the lines of "Git off mah lawn," or "Whut's yer bizness?" You aren't allowed to use people who cross the common sidewalk in front of your house for target practice.

Someone was trigger-happy. Plumbers don't just troll around looking for people who might have leaky fixtures. Someone calls a plumber. Even if the plumber, so the plumber had business there, and wasn't an intruder in the purest sense. Even if the plumber went to the wrong address, he gained access because a door was left unsecured. You don't get to shoot people because you forgot to lock the door. It may not seem reasonable to you that someone can walk into your house because the door is unlocked, but walking onto private property that is unsecured and unlabeled as such is not the same thing as breaking a window, picking a lock, or even walking past a "No Trespassing" sign.

[Ally]

Oh please. I have electricians and plumbers come to my house all the time and they all have the basic common sense to knock on the freaking door. How hard is that to do? How precisely was the homeowner supposed to know that the idiot walking straight into his house without the slightest degree of courtesy was Not a burglar?? Every service person Ive ever had has had the basic brains to realize you dont just walk unannounced into someone else's home.

[RivkahChaya]

Oh please. I have electricians and plumbers come to my house all the time and they all have the basic common sense to knock on the freaking door. How hard is that to do? How precisely was the homeowner supposed to know that the idiot walking straight into his house without the slightest degree of courtesy was Not a burglar?? Every service person Ive ever had has had the basic brains to realize you dont just walk unannounced into someone else's home.

I didn't say it wasn't a stupid thing to do, but it didn't warrant getting shot over. Maybe he did knock, and the homeowner didn't hear, so he tried the door.

Does anyone have a cite to the original story? I don't just want to Google a few details, and get a similar, but different story.

[ChainzCooper]

It must be some sort of Christmas miracle Ally is starting to sound like me on this board hehe
Jordan

[j.r-ahde]

Oh please. I have electricians and plumbers come to my house all the time and they all have the basic common sense to knock on the freaking door. How hard is that to do? How precisely was the homeowner supposed to know that the idiot walking straight into his house without the slightest degree of courtesy was Not a burglar?? Every service person Ive ever had has had the basic brains to realize you dont just walk unannounced into someone else's home.

Hello All!

With no offence, but;

I don't remember my big-sister's name.

I don't remember my nephew's name.

I don't even remember my girlfriend's name.

So, what to do with this absent-minde
dness, to be gun food just like that???


All the best
jukka

[Ally]

Absentmindedness as an all purpose excuse for illegal entry. Now Ive heard it all. Well yes gee Ive lived in the world all my life but I just forgot not to just walk into someone else's house uninvited. Its absolutely amazing the lengths people will go to to excuse someone from the consequences of their own stupidity. No wonder everyone's a victim now. Personal responsibility? What's that?

[j.r-ahde]

Absentmindedness as an all purpose excuse for illegal entry. Now Ive heard it all. Well yes gee Ive lived in the world all my life but I just forgot not to just walk into someone else's house uninvited. Its absolutely amazing the lengths people will go to to excuse someone from the consequences of their own stupidity. No wonder everyone's a victim now. Personal responsibility? What's that?

Well, Ally. It happens to me all the the time: "Oh, you didn't say, that your are going to visit us this weekend?!" So, being an absent-minded person - who forgets everything by nature - is an excuse for fascists like you to gun down persons like me? Weird, to say the least...

All the best
Jukka

[Ally]

If you are in my home illegally (and not having an invite is illegally) I dont need any other excuse to shoot you. And you have five minutes to completely retract your last several comments about me being a fascist or I am reporting you for slander.