Connecticut School Shooting

[Limehouse]

Thank you Colin. That post helped me to understand the situation better, which I am keen to do.

[Hunter]

But with all weapons, even single shot shotguns and muzzle loaders, comes responsibility for the weapon. Contrary to what the NRA may think, the person holding the gun is responsible for every bullet in that gun. After all, we expect our law officers to account for every time they discharge weapons. Why not private citizens?

The NRA has never said that people weren't responsible for their actions, including their conduct and safety with firearms. They are the one national organization that holds classes in firearms safety and responsible ownership. Most CCW license holders train and practice more than LEO do.

[Colin Roberts]

Thank you Colin. That post helped me to understand the situation better, which I am keen to do.

It's just my perspective, Julie, but I am glad that I have provided you with some food for thought.

I meant what I said about the naivety and uninformed aspect of Britons that sneer at America's Second Constitutional Amendment, but I hope that you do not perceive my commentary as being an insult of your level of intelligence, as it is not intended to be anything of the sort.

You all - for the most part - are just as naïve and uninformed as regards our First Constitutional Amendment.

Just as I would gladly put my life on the line to protect my right to bear arms, so too would I gladly put my life on the line to protect my freedom of expression. In fact, I would gladly put my life on the line to protect that of the Westboro Baptist Church and its congregation.

The protests that are conducted around the United States by members of the Westboro Baptist Church are nothing less than despicable. But they truly confirm the fact that the selfless men and women that have given their lives - to the glee of the protesters, of course – for my great nation have done so for all the right reasons. I am agnostic in my religious beliefs – tending toward atheistic – but I will proudly say God bless the right of the Westboro Baptist Church to say whatever it wants, whenever it wants, on any public property it wants.

You Britons that haven't actually lived in this country could not possibly understand my position, any more so than Americans that have not lived in Britain could possibly grasp the extent, to which the English would love to completely rid themselves of the Northern Ireland dilemma.

[The Good Michael]

As an American, I would be happy to scrap the Constitution completely and create something more organic. For example, I would begin with mandatory term limits for politicians. The gun issues will sort themselves out after that is done.

Mike

[Errata]

We keep asking where is the outrage for these other deaths. Ones that don't use guns. And the answer is, the outrage never showed up to the party for the most part. But lest we think the outrage is gun related, I feel it necessary to point out that it is not. There is an equal amount of outrage for a child shot as there is poisoned, smothered, stabbed, etc. Jonbenet Ramsay, Caylee Anderson, perfect examples. Lot's of people get shot that we don't care about. We have no outrage for dead gang bangers. We have no outrage for innocent bystanders in bad neighborhoods unless the victim is a child. We have no outrage for people shot in the commission of a crime, not if the criminal gets shot, not if the victim gets shot. The mall shooting that occurred the day before the Sandy Hook shooting was treated as a mystery, but not an outrage. That shooter killed two adults. The outrage was minimal.

So basically, we care about dead kids and large body counts. Obviously what gets the most reaction is a lot of dead kids. If the death doesn't fall into either of those two categories, or doesn't make us laugh (ie: The Darwin Awards) we don't care. I mean, we care, but it isn't in the foremost of our minds most of the time. Now kids get dead any number of ways, and they get press. We care if they are shot. We care if they were strangled, raped, cut open, throat slit, poisoned, suffocated... So that's not a gun thing. The high body count does tend to be a gun thing. 27 dead in the course of a couple of hours with only one killer is a gun thing. A single killer cannot control that many people to kill them in any other way. One of the ways in which guns can be perceived at being too good at their job. There aren't a lot of spree killings with other weapons. Although, the other thing we care about is public threat deaths. Only seven died in 1982, but boy did we care a LOT about the Tylenol poisonings.

It's human nature. It shouldn't be, but it is.

[RivkahChaya]

So basically, we care about dead kids and large body counts.

It's human nature. It shouldn't be, but it is.

You're entirely right (even if it is Caylee Anthony). We got pretty damn outraged on 9/11, which didn't involve any guns, and a minimal loss of child-life. We also get pretty outraged at serial killers, no matter what their weapon of choice, because they make us feel vulnerable, and because it is easy to cast them as monsters. Jeffrey Dahmer got a lot of people outraged, and it wasn't even so much because he was gay, as that he scared men. One thing about Ted Bundy and Gary Ridgway, is that while they got adult men's alpha hackles up, adult men didn't personally have anything to fear from them. Even John Wayne Gacy, who killed males, killed teenagers, and while that disgusted people, it didn't strike fear in them. That's why serial killers who use guns, and are not obviously looking for a sexual thrill are more frightening than any others. David Berkowitz and the Zodiac created more fear than other killers, because anyone, at any moment, could be a victim. But the Manson gang made people very afraid for the same reason, and they didn't use guns.

So, we care about kids, and we care about large body counts, and I think the reason we do is that the make us the most afraid. They make us feel the most personally vulnerable, or even worse, fear losing our children.

And you are also right that large body counts are usually the result of guns. Also, serial killers whose goal is terror, rather than sexual thrills, usually use guns at some point. The Manson gang never used guns in the two killings they committed, but they had an arsenal, so who knows what they had planned.

[RivkahChaya]

As an American, I would be happy to scrap the Constitution completely and create something more organic. For example, I would begin with mandatory term limits for politicians. The gun issues will sort themselves out after that is done.

Mike

The heck? organic? I have no idea what you are talking about. I'm an American who thinks the constitution is an important document, and I don't live in Kazakhstan-- although I did spend a long weekend there once when I was ten. After many months of pickled everything in Moscow, the fresh fruit is heavenly. Uzbekistan, too.

[The Good Michael]

organic means mutable

[RavenDarkendale]

@ Colin

Killing innocent people is always outrageous whether guns are involved or not. I think 9/11 sparked a lot of outrage, Songs were written in memory of the horrible event, people were glued to their TV sets for weeks, and you could hardly go anywhere without hearing about how bad it was.

This shooting was worse than the usual school shootings. This was no bullied, angry kid killing classmates. This was a man with no ties to the school shooting down small children. When my three kids were in grade school, I didn't worry about them as I thought them safe in that environment.

Where is the safety now? We have to have law enforcement officers in schools to help protect our children. The schools really need metal detectors at entrances. The Government continues to slash the Education budget. There were times my children didn't even have class books.

People kill people with guns, knives, rope, ligatures, etc. Guns are our right to have and to use. I just say make us responsible for our guns. When a tragedy occurs, focus on the dead and wounded, sorrow for the loss, and don't use the event as an example to either push gun control or the 2nd amendment.

Remember the old west? Everyone was armed. The stipulation was in many towns, you had to check your guns to avoid gun violence. When you went back to your job, you picked up your gun and went. This was a safety measure.

If we allow people to have guns and only have reasonable gun control, such as no buying without a background check, military grade weapons only for military personal, limit the amount of ammo one can purchase at a time, and require gun safety courses and practice we still have our gun rights. We can still defend our lives, our family, and our property. In the event of citizens having to overthrow an oppressive and useless Government, citizens would be able to fight.

Common sense is the best gun control!

God Bless

Darkendale

[Colin Roberts]

... When my three kids were in grade school, I didn't worry about them as I thought them safe in that environment.

Where is the safety now? We have to have law enforcement officers in schools to help protect our children. The schools really need metal detectors at entrances. The Government continues to slash the Education budget. There were times my children didn't even have class books.

I teach science to Sixth, Seventh, and Eighth Grade students that have mild learning disabilities ('Exceptional Student Education', 'Varying Exceptionalities', 'Specific Learning Disabilities': Take your pick … each term is applicable) in a 'Title One' school [75% (+) - in our case, its 86% - of students are eligible for free or reduced-price lunch], and I have a good working relationship with our School Resource Officer: An armed Sheriff's Deputy that comes into my classroom each day to check up on my fourteen and fifteen-year-old known drug dealers / gang bangers.

People kill people with guns, knives, rope, ligatures, etc. Guns are our right to have and to use. I just say make us responsible for our guns. When a tragedy occurs, focus on the dead and wounded, sorrow for the loss, and don't use the event as an example to either push gun control or the 2nd amendment.

Remember the old west? Everyone was armed. The stipulation was in many towns, you had to check your guns to avoid gun violence. When you went back to your job, you picked up your gun and went. This was a safety measure.

If we allow people to have guns and only have reasonable gun control, such as no buying without a background check, military grade weapons only for military personal, limit the amount of ammo one can purchase at a time, and require gun safety courses and practice we still have our gun rights. We can still defend our lives, our family, and our property. In the event of citizens having to overthrow an oppressive and useless Government, citizens would be able to fight.

Common sense is the best gun control!

Perhaps I should have been more specific.

… having said all of that, I would gladly put my life on the line to protect the Second Amendment. It represents a fundamental right to self-preservation that we should all revere.

On the other hand, … 'Gun Control' in the United States is in dire need of an overhaul. The fact that I could (apparently) purchase a firearm at a gun show without having to submit to a background check or undergo a waiting period before taking receipt of the weapon, is un-fυcking-believable, and there can be no rationale behind it, excepting of course that of the all-too-powerful gun lobby.

I am a gun owner and a passionate proponent of our Second Amendment. But, I am in favor of much tighter restrictions and controls of private gun ownership, than those which are currently in place.

I rarely – if ever – take sides. I am a former Marine Corps infantry officer / recruit-training officer and life-long registered Republican that voted for Obama: Twice!

I cross party lines on many issues, as I truly believe that if one is on either side of a conflict, then he is on the wrong side.

I could go on and on, … but I won't. But, to reiterate: I am a gun owner and a passionate proponent of our Second Amendment. But, I am in favor of much tighter restrictions and controls of private gun ownership, than those which are currently in place.

[Colin Roberts]

I rarely – if ever – take sides.

Provided, of course, I have remembered to take my Lexapro on a daily basis over the course of the most recent four-to-five-day period.



As many of you know, I have completely lost my cool and accordingly been banished from this site, as well as JTRForums.com, on several occasions.

Jack the Ripper does tend to spark our passions, doesn't he?

[Cogidubnus]

Jack the Ripper does tend to spark our passions, doesn't he?

Hi Colin

Yes for what may well be an imaginary phenomenon, he's most potent...or does that mean I'm going over to the dark side?

All the best

Dave

[Colin Roberts]

Yes for what may well be an imaginary phenomenon, he's most potent...or does that mean I'm going over to the dark side?

He's a real bastard, Dave!

I've tried to make him go away, but he keeps coming back.

[Errata]

Am I the only person who sees a logical disconnect between being outraged that someone publishes information about registered gun owners, but are still insisting on compiling a publicly available list of anyone with any kind of mental illness? I've never heard of someone being beaten, bullied, made fun of, ostracized, evicted, tossed out of school etc. for being a registered gun owner. The same cannot be said for the mentally ill, and now people want to make it easier for us to be abused? Good effing god.

[RivkahChaya]

The same cannot be said for the mentally ill, and now people want to make it easier for us to be abused? Good effing god.

Yeah, but you're all weird, and spooky, and according to the X-Files, sometimes telekinetic.