Connecticut School Shooting

[RavenDarkendale]

Am I the only person who sees a logical disconnect between being outraged that someone publishes information about registered gun owners, but are still insisting on compiling a publicly available list of anyone with any kind of mental illness? I've never heard of someone being beaten, bullied, made fun of, ostracized, evicted, tossed out of school etc. for being a registered gun owner. The same cannot be said for the mentally ill, and now people want to make it easier for us to be abused? Good effing god.

I fit the bill as well, being bi-polar with clinical depression. When I had a psychotic break several years ago, I allowed them to take my gun rights. They didn't confiscate my guns, I just couldn't have them and they had to be stored somewhere I couldn't get them. After more that two years, I went to court to ask for return of my gun rights. It cost me 400 dollars for an attorney, but my rights were restored without question. I can own my guns, buy ammo, or even a new gun if I want.

I am an exception, however. Most never regain their rights. The mentally ill are bullied, discriminated against, the TV shows mock us, and then they wonder why some people go postal...

[Errata]

I fit the bill as well, being bi-polar with clinical depression. When I had a psychotic break several years ago, I allowed them to take my gun rights. They didn't confiscate my guns, I just couldn't have them and they had to be stored somewhere I couldn't get them. After more that two years, I went to court to ask for return of my gun rights. It cost me 400 dollars for an attorney, but my rights were restored without question. I can own my guns, buy ammo, or even a new gun if I want.

I am an exception, however. Most never regain their rights. The mentally ill are bullied, discriminated against, the TV shows mock us, and then they wonder why some people go postal...

I'm a little alarmed that your rights were restored without question, unless part of the application process was getting sworn testimony from your psychiatrist that you were no longer a threat to yourself or others. In which case that's fine.

I have never heard of anyone here having their gun rights taken away unless they committed a crime with it due to their illness. Like waving it about in front of the wife and kids or whatever. Otherwise there is no mechanism in the process of hospitalization or evaluation that links up law enforcement and the doctors. Now, during the evaluation process, they do ask if you have weapons in the home, and if you do, ask you to volunteer to plan on making them inaccessible after your release. Which basically means either turning them over to law enforcement, or giving them to someone to hold on to for you. Which I have done for a friend who was in the Army. When he came home from Iraq he had raging PTSD and had a really bad day. After he checked himself in, he gave me the weapon and a safe and since I can't have them in my home, his pistol lived at my parents house for a year or so.

I think in general it's a bad idea for people with mood disorders to have guns. Not because they are going to postal or anything, but because 50% of people with bipolar attempt suicide. Now, I figure if I haven't tried yet, I'm probably not in that 50%, but I don't even want the "temptation" in the house. Now on the other hand, women almost never shoot themselves to commit suicide. I just think the presence of a gun creates a tension that probably doesn't need to be there. When I am depressed, which despite the fact that I am supposed to be bipolar is pretty much all the time, I become keenly aware of being evaluated by everyone in my life, and the not at all paranoid feeling of being watched. Because I am in fact being watched. And I get pissed off that people don't trust me, despite the fact I've never done anything while depressed. If there was a gun in the house, I would use it as a marker of trust. How often do people look at me, then look at the gun? Can I see them wondering if maybe the gun should be "lost" for a little while? Does the gun in fact get hidden from me? I would be enraged, like all the time. Tension I don't need.

But I think there is no logical reason for people with Bipolar to be kept from guns. I can think of individuals with bipolar who don't need guns, because their manic states are all hypersensitivity and rage, and they aren't in control yet. But the disease itself doesn't make people dangerous. If you are bipolar, and you have guns, and you are in control of your illness, I have no problem. Nor did I have a problem with my friend regaining his weapon after a year of therapy.

I have a problem with racists having guns. My neighbor is Klan, he has guns, and he would shoot a black man who tried to turn around in his driveway. He has stated so on any number of occasions. I have a problem with raging homophobes having guns. Not that they need them, since they seem to prefer beating people to death, but I certainly don't want to make it easier for them. I don't think any man or woman who has laid hands on their spouse in anger should have a gun. I don't think people who torture and kill animals should have guns. I don't think the end is nigh people should have guns. People think survivalists and apocalytes are crazy. They are not. That's not mental illness, that social alienation. I don't think anyone who has ever had a charge related to drunkenness should have a gun, nor anyone with drug charges. People who actively pursue such a total lack of control and judgement are the LAST people we want with guns. I think High school bullies should be banned from guns until they can demonstrate to a psychiatrist and a social worker that they no longer have the desire to hurt other people to make themselves feel better. I think rage-aholics shouldn't have guns. I think people who have ever harmed a child shouldn't have guns. I think people who attend dog fights shouldn't have guns.

I think there are a lot of people in this world who should be banned from owning guns. And at about number 3042 are those with a mental illness that has a chance of causing violence. So until the 3041 types of people ahead of the mentally ill are barred from holding guns, I'm not going to worry about the mentally ill. For the most part, if we are being treated we do quite well. I don't have a problem with guns. I have a problem with about half of the population who is allowed to own a gun. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. I agree. The NRA agrees. So why can't we agree that since people kill people, that guns should not be in the hands of just anyone? Sure, commit a felony, lose the right to own a gun. Don't make law enforcement the only resource that gets to decide. Allow psychiatrists to decide. Allow ER doctors to decide. Allow social workers to decide. If a shrink has a patient who shouldn't have a gun, let him be able to take it away. If an ER doctor gets a battered woman in on a regular basis, but she won't press charges, let him be able to take her husbands gun away. Let 10 people who are close to another person, friends, family, classmates, be able to sign a petition and give it to the court to be able to take that guy's guns away. No arrests, no hospitalizations, nothing that would ruin the guys life if it turns out to be a temporary issue. Hell, let 10 people come together and be able to admit someone to a psychiatric hospital against their will. Let us decide who doesn't get to weild the power of a gun. We all know someone. Not necessarily a friend, but someone who we think is a TERRIBLE candidate for gun ownership. Let us have a say. It would mean that if you want a gun, you have to behave and you know, be polite to people. Not a terrible thing.

[RivkahChaya]

Errata, I have a feeling sometimes that can happen already. I don't want to go into too much detail, that might reveal other people's identities, but I once narced someone out to the department of motor vehicles. She had gone off her seizure medicine, after more than 20 years of being seizure-free on medication, and had a couple absence seizures that lasted for a long time. She claimed she always knew when they were coming on, and wouldn't drive on a day she felt the onset of one. I believed her, on the one hand, because I get migraines, and i always know when one is coming on, and I know other people who get seizures, who say they know when they're going to have one. But I still thought it was dangerous for her to drive, because she was having more and more frequent seizures, and couldn't predict the progress, and besides, THE LAW said she wasn't supposed to be driving.

So I reported her.

I lost her as a friend, and had some other people mad at me for a while-- I did it anonymously, but people knew it was me.

I imagine if you know someone who owns a gun in violation of some law, you can report them to the sheriff. I know that when you get a handgun permit (I don't know about a hunting license) you are specifically asked if you have ever been diagnosed with a mental illness, although the question is not more specific than that, and I don't know what the procedure is if the answer is "yes." So, I don't know what the responsibility of a friend or family member is, if a licensed and registered gun owner is later diagnosed with something. But I think you can call the sheriff and find out.

[Errata]

Errata, I have a feeling sometimes that can happen already. I don't want to go into too much detail, that might reveal other people's identities, but I once narced someone out to the department of motor vehicles. She had gone off her seizure medicine, after more than 20 years of being seizure-free on medication, and had a couple absence seizures that lasted for a long time. She claimed she always knew when they were coming on, and wouldn't drive on a day she felt the onset of one. I believed her, on the one hand, because I get migraines, and i always know when one is coming on, and I know other people who get seizures, who say they know when they're going to have one. But I still thought it was dangerous for her to drive, because she was having more and more frequent seizures, and couldn't predict the progress, and besides, THE LAW said she wasn't supposed to be driving.

So I reported her.

I lost her as a friend, and had some other people mad at me for a while-- I did it anonymously, but people knew it was me.

I imagine if you know someone who owns a gun in violation of some law, you can report them to the sheriff. I know that when you get a handgun permit (I don't know about a hunting license) you are specifically asked if you have ever been diagnosed with a mental illness, although the question is not more specific than that, and I don't know what the procedure is if the answer is "yes." So, I don't know what the responsibility of a friend or family member is, if a licensed and registered gun owner is later diagnosed with something. But I think you can call the sheriff and find out.

I've done it too, and lost friends. I have kidnapped a few people and dropped them at the psych ward for a 72 hour hold. They don't appreciate it. Certainly not at the time. I wish there was some way to do it with a little more delicacy. And with a larger group of people all telling this person the same thing, that they are not okay. Like an intervention, but with involuntary commitment at the end of it.

Never having applied for a handgun permit, I had to look ours up. It asks " Have you ever been adjudicated as a mental defective or have you been committed to or hospitalized in a mental institution?". So it asks if the court has ever found you incompetent or insane, and it asks if you have ever been involuntarily committed. It says right on the form that if you were voluntarily committed, you can answer no to the above question. And that's fine. Of course a 72 hour hold doesn't fall into the category of involuntary committed, no matter how many times it happens. And unless the hospital files the forms for temporary custody to make it a legal involuntary commitment, it doesn't show up in any database. And any number of people are involuntarily committed, because they only agree to stay under extreme duress. So they aren't really getting anything out of the experience.

And of course, there are millions of people in this world who are terrible people, and extremely dangerous, but there is nothing psychologically wrong with them. I've seen a guy who scared the hell out of me just by walking in the room get discharged because "We can't treat *******s here". Which is true. There are a lot of things wrong with my neighbor, because you know, a gay man in the Klan, but whatever his issues are, it isn't a mental illness. Which is another problem. Psychologists can absolutely help people with their issues. But that doesn't mean they have a diagnosis. A crappy childhood with abusive parents and peers resulting in feelings of powerlessness and rage is pretty damn common. That's not a disease. Those are issues. Issues are far more dangerous than mental illness. Issues don't get you committed unless they result in a mental illness, such as depression.

Personally, I'd feel a whole hell of a lot safer if they asked on that permit form whether or not you are a member of a hate group, didn't complete high school, think that a gun is a symbol of masculinity and power, or have substance abuse problems. And have those things pop up in a background check. Like I said, mental illness is way down on my list of concerns. And they should publish the license request in the classifieds like they do divorce notices, and give people a chance to object to the issuance of a license, provided you actually know the person.

[RivkahChaya]

Yeah, I know what you mean. I took someone to the hospital after a half-hearted suicide attempt that probably didn't really need medical treatment, but definitely needed psychiatric treatment, because I didn't want her to try again, and make a better go of it. I don't to this day know whether it was "a cry for help," and not a real attempt, she was too depressed to put in the effort, or she just didn't know what she was doing, and I've never pressed the issue, but at any rate, she was checked in for a 72-hr hold.

I discovered that she actually had the right to check herself out, if the doctor didn't get a judge's order to keep her, but she'd be checking herself out "AMA" (against medical advice), and in the US, since the treatment from the time she got to the emergency room, until she was discharged from the hold, was one event, from the insurance company's perspective, if she checked herself out before the hold expired, she'd be responsible for the cost of everything up until then, whereas, if she stayed as long as the doctors thought she needed to, then it would be covered by her insurance.

So, in the US, that sort of duress exists. In her particular case, it wasn't a bad thing, because she's never tried suicide again, and since this happened over a weekend, she used one sick day, plus one more at home for one day (someone was with her), kept her job, and didn't tank her finances.

[Errata]

So, in the US, that sort of duress exists. In her particular case, it wasn't a bad thing, because she's never tried suicide again, and since this happened over a weekend, she used one sick day, plus one more at home for one day (someone was with her), kept her job, and didn't tank her finances.

I had forgotten about that aspect. Usually when I see people checking themselves in under duress, it is a much more direct threat. Check yourself in, or when you get home you will no longer have a wife or children. Check yourself in, or we will discontinue all of your medication. Check yourself in or this person will press charges against you. And I'm fine with that kind of duress. Actions have consequences. Go nutty on your family one too many times and they will leave. Really it's actually very nice of them that they give you a shot at redemption through hospitalization. And you can't continue medication without being under a psychiatrists care. If you get a prescription and then don't see anyone for the next five or ten years, that's bad.

Yes, mental illness sucks. But if you get diagnosed and treat it and you know, behave, it's not a problem. There will be the occasional burst of whatever your brand of crazy is, but the day to day struggle can be significantly abated. People who refuse to treat their mental illness drive me up the wall. You have cancer you don't want to treat, fine. It affects no one but you. But if you have a mental illness, or epilepsy, or a contagious disease, grow a pair and treat it, because it's not just about you anymore. I had a friend who refused to treat her epilepsy. She had five seizures a week. I cannot tell you how effing tired of it I got. I mean, she's falling over and twitching, and I gotta keep complete strangers from sticking things in her mouth (which is such a firmly held old wives tale that people will physically fight you off to jam a spoon down an epileptic's throat). I ended up telling her she was being a selfish bitch and walking away for good. Yeah, I get it. The medication makes you feel bland and you can't seem to write music anymore. Well, you always were blander than you thought you were, and you can't play guitar for sh1t, so suck it up princess.

So yeah. My tolerance for people who will not see a doctor is hovering somewhere between a 1 and a 2 on a scale of 1000. I mean come on. Don't be a mewling little baby. Take your pills, be a responsible human. Or do your therapy. Don't complain for 4 hours about how the universe is conspiring against your happiness and then say "oh no.. I'm fine." You're not fine. Anyone who bitches over anything except a brand new breakup for more than 10 minutes is not fine. It doesn't mean you have a mental illness, but it does mean that you have officially passed that point where anyone wants to be around you because you are a miserable human being. When people stop hanging out with you, it's time to see a pro. Just sayin'.

[RivkahChaya]

Just had to add, though, I knew someone with hard-to-control epilepsy, who ended up not leaving the house on days she felt a seizure coming on. She took her medication, but she still had 3 or 4 seizures a month. This is not the same person in the earlier post, and yes, I do know a lot of people with epilepsy and other disabilities-- that's my field.

Anyway, half the time she had a seizure in public, someone would call 911 (I think it's 999 in Britain), a problem that started only with the advent of cell phones. She didn't need a trip to the hospital, she just needed about five minutes sitting down, and maybe a glass of water, but the problem was that if she turned down the ambulance, she'd get billed for the whole thing. If she rode it to the hospital, and let a doctor check her out, which sometimes meant hours of waiting, then she'd get billed (IIRC) 20%, and Medicare would get billed 80%.

For the record, there's really nothing EMTs can do during a seizure. It will usually be over by the time they get there, and unless the person has bumped her head, or knocked an arm on something badly enough to fracture it (the first does happen, the second is rarer), she doesn't need medical care. The only time you need to call an ambulance for someone having a seizure is if afterwards, the person is very disoriented for several minutes; passes out; vomits in large amounts; or requests it. The exception is if you observe a prolonged seizure-- longer than about five minutes. But people who have those kind of seizures usually don't go out by themselves if they feel a seizure coming on, or they have other problems, like movement disorders, or autism, and don't go out unaccompanied anyway.

Of course, if the person you see having a seizure is someone you know, and you know for a fact doesn't have epilepsy, then by all means call 911; I'm talking strictly about calling it for strangers.

[Beowulf]

With all the talk about the Conneticut gun shootings we never heard if his mom had a gun cabinet...

[Errata]

With all the talk about the Conneticut gun shootings we never heard if his mom had a gun cabinet...

Does it matter? Every gun cabinet I've ever met can be easily defeated with a hammer. Many can be taken out by a high heeled shoe.

[Beowulf]

Does it matter? Every gun cabinet I've ever met can be easily defeated with a hammer. Many can be taken out by a high heeled shoe.

But this guy got a hold of his mom's deadliest weapons. Bet he could've had her high heeled shoe or her hammer. She was asleep, meaning she was given authority to have the guns through the state of Conneticut, not him, and she was supposed to have them locked up safely.

She went to bed without doing so. What's the use of gun laws in that case?

[Steve S]

We have a thing called "reasonable security" for gun owners...For me,it's a two-lock cabinet on a structural wall with expanding bolts....Other Police forces are happy with a chain through the trigger guard to a loft rafter........No consistancy..........

[RivkahChaya]

But this guy got a hold of his mom's deadliest weapons. Bet he could've had her high heeled shoe or her hammer. She was asleep, meaning she was given authority to have the guns through the state of Conneticut, not him, and she was supposed to have them locked up safely.

Did you misunderstand Errata, or are you making a joke? he meant that you can break into a gun cabinet with a hammer, or high heeled shoe, not that you can use a shoe or hammer as a weapon, instead of a gun.

You can buy a gun box that is as secure as the black box on an airplane, but it doesn't allow you to display your weapons, and gun collectors like to have things on display. That's why when someone is killed with his own weapon, is his child kills a friend, or commits suicide, it's usually a collector. Police officers, as an example, generally secure their weapons very well, because the last thing they want is their children getting to them, and the second to last thing is someone stealing their gun, and using it in a crime. Since most police officers have had to respond to a "kid got hold of parent's gun" involved shooting, or something similar, and stories abound among officers (and probably some are Urban Legends) of officers guns being used by criminals, police officers really do worry about that sort of thing.

[Errata]

Did you misunderstand Errata, or are you making a joke? he meant that you can break into a gun cabinet with a hammer, or high heeled shoe, not that you can use a shoe or hammer as a weapon, instead of a gun.

You can buy a gun box that is as secure as the black box on an airplane, but it doesn't allow you to display your weapons, and gun collectors like to have things on display. That's why when someone is killed with his own weapon, is his child kills a friend, or commits suicide, it's usually a collector. Police officers, as an example, generally secure their weapons very well, because the last thing they want is their children getting to them, and the second to last thing is someone stealing their gun, and using it in a crime. Since most police officers have had to respond to a "kid got hold of parent's gun" involved shooting, or something similar, and stories abound among officers (and probably some are Urban Legends) of officers guns being used by criminals, police officers really do worry about that sort of thing.

I'm a she, but neither here nor there. This is why I don't think any sort of gun control will work if we treat the guns as the bad guys. Yes we can tell everyone that they have to lock up their guns in little gun jails. That doesn't mean they will do it. And when it goes wrong, it goes really wrong. So maybe the types of PEOPLE who won't lock their guns up in little gun jails shouldn't be able to get guns. Maybe the types of people who run in around a weird paranoid wild west mindset shouldn't get guns either. I don't have a problem with the fact that guns are designed to kill. I have a problem with people who try to pretend that they aren't. "Oh it's a tradition handed down from father to son..." shut up. So is infidelity, spousal abuse, and substance abuse. Not all traditions are good ones. Guns are not a culture. They are an object designed to end life. Let's just drop the irrelevant crap. You cannot build an identity around an object. Every example of that known to man has gone very very poorly. So don't expect sympathy for being so weak that an inanimate object has shaped your life, instead of your own will.

Anyway, I have to go through ten times more crap to get a jewelery cleaner that contains cyanide than I do to get a gun. If I go to get a gun, no one comes to my house to see if I can store it properly or if I'm likely to kill the neighbors. And this stuff can kill maybe two people if they drink it. If I dumped it into the ground water, I could potentially make a lot of people slightly ill. Why doesn't anyone fight for my rights? Oh yeah. Because that would be stupid.

[RivkahChaya]

I'm a she, but neither here nor there.

Sorry; I post on another MB where someone has the username "Errata," and that person is a he. I've been posting there for six or seven years, and it happens I know what that person looks like, so I guess I've confabulated you. I'll try to picture Lillian Gish from now on, when you post.

[RavenDarkendale]

I'm a little alarmed that your rights were restored without question, unless part of the application process was getting sworn testimony from your psychiatrist that you were no longer a threat to yourself or others. In which case that's fine.

I have never heard of anyone here having their gun rights taken away unless they committed a crime with it due to their illness.

I assure you that a letter from my psychiatrist was essential to my getting my gun rights back. They were taken away under a VA law that went into effect following the VA Tech massacre. Being put in hospital under a TDO automatically results in loss of gun rights unless the Judge dismisses the TDO and allows you to sign yourself in to the hospital. I was offered this, but since I was suicidal at the time, I chose to lose my rights. I could have filed for them back in six months, but I waited over two years.

All this was a blessing in disguise because I was being treated at a Government run clinic that had very poor service and my trip to Clearwood hooked me up with a private practice. My Doctor is always available, he keeps my medicine regulated, and the worst I do now if my nerves crack is go buy a pack of smokes. I don't do that often anymore.

Since I have regained my guns, I have shot only my .22 magnum rifle, target practicing with my oldest son. I keep them in a locked cabinet. Only I have the combo.

God Bless

Dale