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  • Wickerman
    replied
    I thought you said you were not American?

    Leave a comment:


  • jason_c
    replied
    Originally posted by Svensson View Post
    I think the Post Office Union's decision to endorse Biden is hardly surprising when the other candidate called the post office "a Joke" in the Oval office just because he has a personal feud with Jeff Bezos and then installs a lackey who has financial interest in the Postal Services competitors and is actively restricting the Postal Service's capabilities.
    The unions beef with Trump doesn't explain their endorsement of Clinton in '16 and Obama in '12. I think we know which side of the political aisle the postal union is on most years. Trump has nothing to do with their decision. I don't think you'd trust the NRA to count Presidential votes yet I'm expected to trust a partisan union to deliver them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Svensson
    replied
    I think the Post Office Union's decision to endorse Biden is hardly surprising when the other candidate called the post office "a Joke" in the Oval office just because he has a personal feud with Jeff Bezos and then installs a lackey who has financial interest in the Postal Services competitors and is actively restricting the Postal Service's capabilities.

    Leave a comment:


  • jason_c
    replied
    Originally posted by Svensson View Post

    my gut feeling, and it is only a gut feeling, is that voter fraud by inserting yourself into the process is difficult and probably not worth the risk. By "Process" I mean

    1. Person A is a registered voter
    2. Person A then applies for a postal vote.
    3. Person A then gets a ballot with a serial number/bar-code
    3.a Here is the first opportunity for Person B to intercept the letter somehow. For the fraud to work, Person B would need to get access to the mail and correctly guess the voting intention of Person A (otherwise, all this fraud would not actually change a vote). Person B could then tick a different box than person A would have, sign it and send it off. Here are already two crimes. Mail theft and voting fraud for potentially switching just ONE vote.

    So I don't see this as a realistic scenario. Especially when considering that Person A could call the electoral commission and state that he/she has not received the ballot which would like put a red-flag on that serial number or bar-code which means they would be on the look-out for when that ballot comes back. Also, if there are several bad actors actually doing exactly this, then would they not need to coordinate and all switch votes the same way? Or if they are not coordinating, would they not all cancel each other out (more or less)

    If voter fraud could be done on a scale that could potentially change the outcome of an election, then this would need to be done in a place where someone would have access to large quantities of ballots. For example:

    1. where the ballots are printed. But here, systems must be in place where a serial number would need to be unique on all ballots and all are accounted for. Incidentally, the same problem (and solution) would exist where ballots are printed for in-person voting so mail-in ballots should not be inherently less safe.
    2. Where filled-in ballots are received. There seems to be a practice in the US called "ballot-harvesting", where political operatives can go from house to house and say "Let me collect your vote and I will deliver it to the polling station" or to that effect. Personally, I think this is insane. Elections need to be carried out by non-partisan institutions and no party should ever get their hands on a ballot. Ever. Situations like these can lead to the scandal in 9th District in NC in 2018 where a GOP operative was convicted of large voter fraud. Simple solution: get rid of this "Ballot Harvesting" practice. What's so difficult about it?
    3. When votes are counted. So in the US, I believe almost all votes are cast electronically, so there is no counting of papers that can be verified like in the UK for example. But I suppose the same system could be deployed to count the postal votes in the US. The counting should be public and operatives of all parties should be able to view the proceedings to ensure that they are not getting screwed over during THIS part of the process.

    So looking at all of this, I don't see how massive voter fraud could reasonably be committed providing some BASIC PRECAUTIONS AND PROCEDURES are in place. And it is the job of the states to ensure that such processes are implemented and enforced.

    Even when we discuss all the potential shortcomings for mail-in (and therefore paper-based) voting, what makes us think that electronic in-person voting can be trusted that much more? Voter databases can be hacked into and HAVE been hacked into by the Russians, the programs that compile vote counts can fail or be tampered with, etc. etc.. I feel that there are gaps in those processes that need attention that no one is talking about and Moscow Mitch's Senate is too apathetic to do anything about (because the comrades in Moscow are of course doing all of this on the GOP's behalf).

    Finally, let's take a steps back and wonder why this issue is so important to Trump and the GOP. The simple answer is that postal-voting undermines the GOP's traditional voter suppression tactics such as
    1. fewer number of voting stations in relation to population in ethnic minority areas.
    2. Moving voting stations miles away from population centres.
    3. changing locations last minute.
    4. Under staffing so that voters have to wait for hours.

    and probably a few others I can't think of right now. All of the problems above are solved by mail-in voting. Now this paragraph might sound extremely cynical an I have no direct proof of all this happening by malicious design but it is happening nonetheless.

    So the whole thing is a trade-off. You may swap some existing problems with in-person voting for new problems with mail-in voting, I'm happy to acknowledge that. The challenge is to mitigate those problems and it is here where I see no attempt whatsoever by Trump and his goons to do their duty. That duty is to give people palatable options to cast their votes safely, securely and fairly. Trump actually does the opposite, he is sabotaging the US electoral process. For that alone, he should be impeached and immediately be removed but as long as the goons are running the Senate, this fail-safe is not realistically available to US citizens.

    Cheers.
    Thanks for the detailed reply. I agree that ballot harvesting is the real problem. Below is a link to a Dem operative who says he has been doing this for years. It is a real and present danger. I'm of the opinion that the greater the human input required to vote the less secure the vote actually is. Not only is ballot harvesting a problem but I'm also suspicious of postal workers. All it takes is for a postal worker to stuff postal votes into the trash from a heavily Repub or Dem area and the result is compromised. I barely trust a postal worker with 5 for my nephews birthday, I don't trust them with the fate of the free world in their hands. This is especially so when their union has endorsed Biden and union members have been told by the media that one of the candidates is literally Hitler.

    https://nypost.com/2020/08/29/politi...il-in-ballots/

    Leave a comment:


  • Svensson
    replied
    Originally posted by jason_c View Post


    Do we at least agree that voter fraud and malpractice is more common than some of the figures you cited earlier? Tbh I thought them ridiculously low. Human fallibility is common, as is human corruption. Also, our systems for weeding out bad faith actors is not great in many areas of society.
    my gut feeling, and it is only a gut feeling, is that voter fraud by inserting yourself into the process is difficult and probably not worth the risk. By "Process" I mean

    1. Person A is a registered voter
    2. Person A then applies for a postal vote.
    3. Person A then gets a ballot with a serial number/bar-code
    3.a Here is the first opportunity for Person B to intercept the letter somehow. For the fraud to work, Person B would need to get access to the mail and correctly guess the voting intention of Person A (otherwise, all this fraud would not actually change a vote). Person B could then tick a different box than person A would have, sign it and send it off. Here are already two crimes. Mail theft and voting fraud for potentially switching just ONE vote.

    So I don't see this as a realistic scenario. Especially when considering that Person A could call the electoral commission and state that he/she has not received the ballot which would like put a red-flag on that serial number or bar-code which means they would be on the look-out for when that ballot comes back. Also, if there are several bad actors actually doing exactly this, then would they not need to coordinate and all switch votes the same way? Or if they are not coordinating, would they not all cancel each other out (more or less)

    If voter fraud could be done on a scale that could potentially change the outcome of an election, then this would need to be done in a place where someone would have access to large quantities of ballots. For example:

    1. where the ballots are printed. But here, systems must be in place where a serial number would need to be unique on all ballots and all are accounted for. Incidentally, the same problem (and solution) would exist where ballots are printed for in-person voting so mail-in ballots should not be inherently less safe.
    2. Where filled-in ballots are received. There seems to be a practice in the US called "ballot-harvesting", where political operatives can go from house to house and say "Let me collect your vote and I will deliver it to the polling station" or to that effect. Personally, I think this is insane. Elections need to be carried out by non-partisan institutions and no party should ever get their hands on a ballot. Ever. Situations like these can lead to the scandal in 9th District in NC in 2018 where a GOP operative was convicted of large voter fraud. Simple solution: get rid of this "Ballot Harvesting" practice. What's so difficult about it?
    3. When votes are counted. So in the US, I believe almost all votes are cast electronically, so there is no counting of papers that can be verified like in the UK for example. But I suppose the same system could be deployed to count the postal votes in the US. The counting should be public and operatives of all parties should be able to view the proceedings to ensure that they are not getting screwed over during THIS part of the process.

    So looking at all of this, I don't see how massive voter fraud could reasonably be committed providing some BASIC PRECAUTIONS AND PROCEDURES are in place. And it is the job of the states to ensure that such processes are implemented and enforced.

    Even when we discuss all the potential shortcomings for mail-in (and therefore paper-based) voting, what makes us think that electronic in-person voting can be trusted that much more? Voter databases can be hacked into and HAVE been hacked into by the Russians, the programs that compile vote counts can fail or be tampered with, etc. etc.. I feel that there are gaps in those processes that need attention that no one is talking about and Moscow Mitch's Senate is too apathetic to do anything about (because the comrades in Moscow are of course doing all of this on the GOP's behalf).

    Finally, let's take a steps back and wonder why this issue is so important to Trump and the GOP. The simple answer is that postal-voting undermines the GOP's traditional voter suppression tactics such as
    1. fewer number of voting stations in relation to population in ethnic minority areas.
    2. Moving voting stations miles away from population centres.
    3. changing locations last minute.
    4. Under staffing so that voters have to wait for hours.

    and probably a few others I can't think of right now. All of the problems above are solved by mail-in voting. Now this paragraph might sound extremely cynical an I have no direct proof of all this happening by malicious design but it is happening nonetheless.

    So the whole thing is a trade-off. You may swap some existing problems with in-person voting for new problems with mail-in voting, I'm happy to acknowledge that. The challenge is to mitigate those problems and it is here where I see no attempt whatsoever by Trump and his goons to do their duty. That duty is to give people palatable options to cast their votes safely, securely and fairly. Trump actually does the opposite, he is sabotaging the US electoral process. For that alone, he should be impeached and immediately be removed but as long as the goons are running the Senate, this fail-safe is not realistically available to US citizens.

    Cheers.
    Last edited by Svensson; 09-03-2020, 10:35 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Simon Wood
    replied
    Hi Jon,

    Bill Barr is not fit to be Janitor General.

    20th January 2021 will be Biden's Night of the Long Knives.

    I can't wait to see these bastards jobless and out on the street.

    Stay well.

    Simon

    Leave a comment:


  • jason_c
    replied
    Originally posted by Svensson View Post

    well, that number is likely to through the roof now that Trump is instructing his supporters to commit voter fraud. Which is a crime. The "Law and Order" "president" is instructing his followers to commit crimes.

    Do we at least agree that voter fraud and malpractice is more common than some of the figures you cited earlier? Tbh I thought them ridiculously low. Human fallibility is common, as is human corruption. Also, our systems for weeding out bad faith actors is not great in many areas of society.

    Leave a comment:


  • jason_c
    replied
    Originally posted by Svensson View Post

    You could also enourage your state-representative to point out what weaknesses there may be and then pass state-legislation that would address such weaknesses. Other countries have worked out how to vote by mail; it can't be that difficult.
    I'm not American so I'm in no position to do that. I am also sceptical as to just how honest many state reps are. We know for sure many local(and indeed Fed) politicians in past decades were corrupt when it came to voting rights and dubious vote counts. Political corruption is probably just as common in state legislatures today.

    Leave a comment:


  • Wickerman
    replied
    William Barr embarrassed himself yesterday, saying it's logical to assume foreign countries will send voters mail-in ballots to duplicate the number of votes.
    Ballots are colour coded & pre-signed by the voter, and includes a barcode unique to the voter. Ridiculous to assume a foreign country can obtain all this information about thousands of voters.

    If Biden does get in, he will have a long list of people who need to be removed from office before he can trust the federal departments he must work with.

    Leave a comment:


  • Wickerman
    replied
    Originally posted by Svensson View Post

    what about the real meddling super-power, the Ukranians?
    I heard such stories were planted by the Russians to divert attention from Russia.

    Leave a comment:


  • Svensson
    replied
    Originally posted by jason_c View Post

    More trouble in Detroit surrounding absentee ballots. Yet we are meant to believe something like only 0.00004% of such ballots are fraudulent.

    https://eu.freep.com/story/news/poli...rs/5635528002/
    well, that number is likely to through the roof now that Trump is instructing his supporters to commit voter fraud. Which is a crime. The "Law and Order" "president" is instructing his followers to commit crimes.

    Leave a comment:


  • Svensson
    replied
    Originally posted by jason_c View Post

    More trouble in Detroit surrounding absentee ballots. Yet we are meant to believe something like only 0.00004% of such ballots are fraudulent.

    https://eu.freep.com/story/news/poli...rs/5635528002/
    You could also enourage your state-representative to point out what weaknesses there may be and then pass state-legislation that would address such weaknesses. Other countries have worked out how to vote by mail; it can't be that difficult.

    Leave a comment:


  • Svensson
    replied
    Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
    Everybody's getting in on the act.....
    • China "prefers that President Trump - whom Beijing sees as unpredictable - does not win re-election", the statement says, and has been "expanding its influence efforts" ahead of the vote
    • Russia is seeking to "denigrate" Mr Biden's candidacy and other members of a perceived "anti-Russia 'establishment'". Mr Evanina added that some other actors linked to Russia "are also seeking to boost President Trump's candidacy on social media and Russian television"
    • Iran is trying to "undermine US democratic institutions", Mr Trump, and "divide the country" ahead of the vote by spreading disinformation and "anti-US content" online. Their efforts are driven partially by a belief a second term for the president "would result in a continuation of US pressure on Iran in an effort to foment regime change"
    https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-53702872
    what about the real meddling super-power, the Ukranians?

    Leave a comment:


  • Abby Normal
    replied
    Originally posted by c.d. View Post
    Hello Wick,

    Florida also screwed up their ballot in that it wasn't aligned properly. Some people (especially senior citizens) thought they were voting for X but it turned out that because of the misalignment of the names on the ballot they actually voted for Y. Pretty much a fiasco all around.

    I do give credit to Gore for conceding. He could have contested the results and really torn the country apart.

    c.d.
    hi cd
    not sure when gore conceded, but wasnt it after the supreme court got involved because the controversy dragged it out until january? and it was eventually their ruling which gave the election to bush?

    also, didnt bush call gore at some point to see if he would concede, which he didnt and was somewhat rude which prompted bush to say something like ...wel you dont have to get snippy! lol
    Last edited by Abby Normal; 08-30-2020, 09:11 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Wickerman
    replied
    Thanks c.d., I knew about the recounts Gore vs Bush, but hadn't heard of anything else you speak of.

    Leave a comment:

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