Richard III & the Car Park

[Errata]

I would not be surprised either way about Marlowe's death. It may well have been pre-planned or it may just as well have been spontaneous. I understand the autopsy report still survives but have so far not been able to read it. Was the knife wound directly above the eye? Or was it a number of inches above?

It said "right above the eye", but I got the impression that the eye was intact, so it didn't go in the orbit. If it had it would have popped it like a grape. And the raised portion of the orbit where the brow is deflects things away from the eye. Upwards usually. Which leaves a stab wound in the bloody forehead.

[Phil H]

IMHO, the questions surrounding Marlowe's death should focus not so much on the mechanics of the possible murder, but on the place where it took place and the aftermath.

Phil

[jason_c]

My thing is, he was stabbed to death above the right eye. Right through the thickest part of the skull. That's not easy to do. Which doesn't point to a conspiracy by any means, but Jesus. Marlowe grabs a guys knife, slices open his head a bit, and in the ensuing struggle Frizer manages to wrest the knife back, and the he stabbed Marlowe in the forehead. Stabbed in the forehead. That is a thick strong bone there. How often does that happen? That's a lot more rare than writing biting commentary in three act format. Really makes you wonder what the other guy looked like.

Dying like that seems unlikely, unless your a special ops hand to hand combat instructor or something. Frizer's obvious intent appears at odds with the spontaneous nature of the incident; but some violent types have to kill when provoked.

I would not be surprised either way about Marlowe's death. It may well have been pre-planned or it may just as well have been spontaneous. I understand the autopsy report still survives but have so far not been able to read it. Was the knife wound directly above the eye? Or was it a number of inches above?

A wound to the front does at least suggest the possibility of a a face to face fight. Its not as if he was found with a knife sticking out his back. While a knife to the forehead may seem strange it can also be viewed as so strange that its inconclusive. The culprit of a pre-planned murder may well have found it easier to strike a blow to the heart or the neck. As I said, it would not surprise me either way. From what ive read about the case I do find it is pretty lazy thinking(this isnt aimed at anyone on this thread) to automatically conclude conspiracy. Conspiracy is also a far sexier subject to write about than a sleazy death over a few pennies.

[Scorpio]

My thing is, he was stabbed to death above the right eye. Right through the thickest part of the skull. That's not easy to do. Which doesn't point to a conspiracy by any means, but Jesus. Marlowe grabs a guys knife, slices open his head a bit, and in the ensuing struggle Frizer manages to wrest the knife back, and the he stabbed Marlowe in the forehead. Stabbed in the forehead. That is a thick strong bone there. How often does that happen? That's a lot more rare than writing biting commentary in three act format. Really makes you wonder what the other guy looked like.

Dying like that seems unlikely, unless your a special ops hand to hand combat instructor or something. Frizer's obvious intent appears at odds with the spontaneous nature of the incident; but some violent types have to kill when provoked.

[Cogidubnus]

Marlowe, so far as I've ever been able to see, got what he deserved...a pisshead's death...

All the best

Dave

[Errata]

My thing is, he was stabbed to death above the right eye. Right through the thickest part of the skull. That's not easy to do. Which doesn't point to a conspiracy by any means, but Jesus. Marlowe grabs a guys knife, slices open his head a bit, and in the ensuing struggle Frizer manages to wrest the knife back, and the he stabbed Marlowe in the forehead. Stabbed in the forehead. That is a thick strong bone there. How often does that happen? That's a lot more rare than writing biting commentary in three act format. Really makes you wonder what the other guy looked like.

[RivkahChaya]

Marlowe's personality does correspond in some degrees with Cleckley's description of a psychopathic type:
A possibly highly intelligent individual capable of massively foolhardy and self destructive behavior.

Is "psychopathic" the right word? I'd say, the frat-boy type who dies of alcohol poisoning at age 22, trying to win a bet, yes, though, if that's the sort of thing you mean. I lived in a college town for many years, and I can't tell you how often something stupid like that led the news.

There's a 20-year-old (I think she'd be 22 or 23 now) woman missing in the town where I went to college, and lived for many years. She had a heart condition called Long QT syndrome, which is dangerous if untreated, but usually very treatable. Anyway, for non-Brits who don't know, the drinking age in the whole US now is 21, and in the state of Indiana, you are not even allowed to enter a bar if you are under 21. In college towns, where you gets social groups of people both over and under 21, because the normal age for going to college is 18-22, fake IDs are huge business.

So, this woman was out very late, going to a bar, with a fake ID, which was pretty much business as usual for a 20-year-old on a weekend, got pretty drunk, may have been taking other drugs, and skipped a dose of her heart medication, and as it happened, was a very small woman, only about 90lbs. (6.5 stone, or 41kg), and never made it home. A security video caught her about a block away from her apartment at 4am, and her shoes were found at a friend's place the next morning.

She vanished. Apart from the shoes, IIRC, her keys turned up about a day later, somewhere near her building.

At first, there was some hope that she had seized or just passed out some place, but after three years, and searches with cadaver dogs, the police are pretty sure someone is responsible for disposing of her body.

No one is talking, and there haven't been any arrests, but the general opinion around the campus seems to be that she died of a heart attack after getting drunk and stoned with her friends, and they hid the body, rather than get expelled from school, which is what would have happened to the ones over 21, for supplying alcohol to a "minor," which for purposes of that particular, draconian, law, she was, even though a minor is usually someone under 18, and even the ones under 21 would have been in serious trouble. Any of them might have been charged with reckless endangerment, if they helped her get her fake ID, or it was determined during autopsy that calling 911 could have saved her.

All speculative, of course. But just about every time there has been an alcohol-related death, there's been some kind of cover-up. If you're lucky, your "friends" slow the car down when they toss you out in front of the emergency room.

I don't know that any of those people were "psychopathic," and they were all reasonably intelligent. They got accepted to college, and for the most part, had made it through at least a year without flunking out.

Alcohol really impairs your judgment, though, in a way that other things which make you sleepy and slow don't. Someone who has taken a couple of Ativan shouldn't drive, but I can't picture her pulling up her shirt for those "girls gone wild" videos with the same relish as someone who is even just a little buzzed on alcohol. [/grown-up]

[Scorpio]

Marlowe's personality does correspond in some degrees with Cleckley's description of a psychopathic type:
A possibly highly intelligent individual capable of massively foolhardy and self destructive behavior.

[RivkahChaya]

Marlowe had no power; but he may have earned the enmity of powerful people.

Or, he might have gotten into a bar fight.

I realize that you can broadly define "conspiracy" as any agreement between two or more people to break the law, and that it's been defined that way to get around lawyer-client privilege, as well as statutes of limitations (albeit, not always successfully, you can't blame a DA for trying), and yet, I still think bar fights are more common.

I know people have some kind of gut reaction that makes them want to think that great people, like writers of Marlowe's caliber, didn't get into common brawls, much less die really stupid deaths, and it's tempting to want to make their deaths mean something, but great people do die very stupidly sometimes.

[Scorpio]

With the help of the Marlowe Society a window commemorating Marlowe was installed in Westminster Abbey few years ago. Unfortunately it added fuel to the conspiracy fire by questioning whether he in fact he died 1593.



I can just about believe in a conspiracy to kill Marlowe. Though its also worth bearing in mind that Marlowe(or rather his associates) had "previous" for physical violence. You certainly get the impression that he was Lord Byron before Lord Byron - mad, bad, and dangerous to know.

Conspiracy seems a very grand word. Kings, Queens, and Presidents inspire conspiracies; but lesser mortals can inspire the powerful to destroy them if they become to influential, or to much of a nuisance. Marlowe had no power; but he may have earned the enmity of powerful people.

[Errata]

I can just about believe in a conspiracy to kill Marlowe. Though its also worth bearing in mind that Marlowe(or rather his associates) had "previous" for physical violence. You certainly get the impression that he was Lord Byron before Lord Byron - mad, bad, and dangerous to know.

It might be that the question isn't "why did someone murder Marlowe" but "why didn't someone murder Marlowe sooner?".

He might have had it coming for years.

[jason_c]

There's a guy who wrote a really impossible conspiracy Marlowe-is-really-Shakespeare theory, based mainly on a line that appeared in a Marlowe poem, and a similar line in Shakespeare play, which the poor guy did not realize was one of the most parodied lines in all of Elizabethan literature, and a line similar to it appeared in the work of almost every notable Elizabethan author (and probably lots of non-notable ones, whose work has not survived). The theory had more intrigue than Macbeth, with Marlowe living in France, and smuggling finished plays to his patron, who passed them on to a hack actor, who apparently couldn't act to save his life, except when it came to playing the role of the greatest writer of the time, in which he was entirely convincing.

It was laughable, but if the guy had tried writing it as a novel, instead of yet another serious "the guy from Stratford was a buffoon" theory, it might have been great.

The part where he makes up how Marlowe survives the assassination attempt, because it's staged, and really some other guy was killed, and Marlowe sneaked into France, was the best part. I was actually on the edge of my seat for that part. It went downhill fast from there, though.

I can't remember the title, and google-fu is failing me. I also can't find anything like it on Amazon. I think it was written back in the 1960s, though.

With the help of the Marlowe Society a window commemorating Marlowe was installed in Westminster Abbey few years ago. Unfortunately it added fuel to the conspiracy fire by questioning whether he in fact he died 1593.



I can just about believe in a conspiracy to kill Marlowe. Though its also worth bearing in mind that Marlowe(or rather his associates) had "previous" for physical violence. You certainly get the impression that he was Lord Byron before Lord Byron - mad, bad, and dangerous to know.

[Scorpio]

We need to rename this thread HISTORY CORNER
Bring it on, i say.

[Phil H]

Thoughts on Marlowe have come on a lot in recent years. Later I'll put up some links and titles etc that might interest you.

Phil

[RivkahChaya]

There's a guy who wrote a really impossible conspiracy Marlowe-is-really-Shakespeare theory, based mainly on a line that appeared in a Marlowe poem, and a similar line in Shakespeare play, which the poor guy did not realize was one of the most parodied lines in all of Elizabethan literature, and a line similar to it appeared in the work of almost every notable Elizabethan author (and probably lots of non-notable ones, whose work has not survived). The theory had more intrigue than Macbeth, with Marlowe living in France, and smuggling finished plays to his patron, who passed them on to a hack actor, who apparently couldn't act to save his life, except when it came to playing the role of the greatest writer of the time, in which he was entirely convincing.

It was laughable, but if the guy had tried writing it as a novel, instead of yet another serious "the guy from Stratford was a buffoon" theory, it might have been great.

The part where he makes up how Marlowe survives the assassination attempt, because it's staged, and really some other guy was killed, and Marlowe sneaked into France, was the best part. I was actually on the edge of my seat for that part. It went downhill fast from there, though.

I can't remember the title, and google-fu is failing me. I also can't find anything like it on Amazon. I think it was written back in the 1960s, though.