Richard III & the Car Park

[RivkahChaya]

Yeah I've heard that. I've also heard that you guys had a penchant for wild west shows in the 80s and 90s. I guess the grass is greener.

What always raises my eyebrows is the "Lapland" Christmas experiences, or whatever exactly they are. I realize that the US Victorian London Christmases may be just as silly, but at least Dickens did have a hand in turning Christmas into a big festival. What's up with Lapland? What's so Christmassy about it?

I would love to see a UK Wild West show.

[RivkahChaya]

I used to belong to the SCA. Even though our "events" were meant to be campy, they were usually a lot more accurate than any American Ren Faire I've ever been to. We never served turkey.

[Errata]

Just a God-Fearing Parliamentarian Musketeer,that's me....The Faire thing has never really caught on in the UK,other than as small-scale village things...We like our battles big and bloody!

Yeah I've heard that. I've also heard that you guys had a penchant for wild west shows in the 80s and 90s. I guess the grass is greener.

But last I checked they still do reenactments at Bosworth, Jousts and reenactments at Edinborough Castle, and at the Leeds Armory. So I imagine it's possible to get involved somewhere. Not so much as a roundhead...

[ChrisGeorge]

Sorry for the late notification. Just heard about this contest myself --

Write a Shakespearean soliloquy delivered by the ghost of Richard III reflecting on the discovery of his bones in a Leicester car park (16 lines max.). Email entries to lucy@spectator.co.uk by midday on 27 February.

For more information see http://www.spectator.co.uk/life/comp...riendly-bombs/

[Steve S]

You bought high renaissance armor??? Or a cavalier costume? I have a couple of lovely basket and swept hilt rapiers, but on the whole, I even prefer my swords earlier. I can't use them as well, but there's something about the good old cruciform sword. If I was going to invest in armor again, if would be a copy of Saladin's mail and scale. Personal favorite of mine.

We mostly stick with high medieval stuff, because frankly there are more faires set in that era than in the renaissance. Even though my home faire is Elizabethan. Keep that in mind if you ever decide to jump in and play.

Just a God-Fearing Parliamentarian Musketeer,that's me....The Faire thing has never really caught on in the UK,other than as small-scale village things...We like our battles big and bloody!

[Errata]

So do I,but it's justifying the cost.................. Went to the re-enactor's trader's fair at the weekend and was still salivating over medieval shinies long after buying my 1640's stuff..............

You bought high renaissance armor??? Or a cavalier costume? I have a couple of lovely basket and swept hilt rapiers, but on the whole, I even prefer my swords earlier. I can't use them as well, but there's something about the good old cruciform sword. If I was going to invest in armor again, if would be a copy of Saladin's mail and scale. Personal favorite of mine.

We mostly stick with high medieval stuff, because frankly there are more faires set in that era than in the renaissance. Even though my home faire is Elizabethan. Keep that in mind if you ever decide to jump in and play.

[RivkahChaya]

For those of you who haven't had a chance to watch the documentary about the Richard III dig, 'The King in the Car Park', it's available in full on YouTube.

No idea how long it will stay there though.

'The King in the Car Park' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uUycrk5AfY

Best regards,
Archaic

Thanks. I'm downloading it, so even if it comes down later, I'll have it on my hard drive.

[Steve S]

If you really want one, I know a few guys...

So do I,but it's justifying the cost.................. Went to the re-enactor's trader's fair at the weekend and was still salivating over medieval shinies long after buying my 1640's stuff..............

[Archaic]

Full Video 'The King in the Car Park'

For those of you who haven't had a chance to watch the documentary about the Richard III dig, 'The King in the Car Park', it's available in full on YouTube.

No idea how long it will stay there though.

'The King in the Car Park' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uUycrk5AfY

Best regards,
Archaic

[Errata]

I've always wanted a Brigandine....... Taylor's kit is actually based on period illustrations of the Scots Archers of the French king,so '50's Hollywood sometimes got it right.........

If you really want one, I know a few guys...

[Errata]

The usual view of Richard's end is that his horse - White Surrey - was brought down (hence Shakespeare's immortal cry) and that he then fought on, on foot, in the thickest press of his enemies. I always imagine him being under a sort of rugby scrum in his final moments.

James IV) of Scotland was, of course, famously pulled down by a bill at Flodden, not that many years later.

Given the position of the halberd/bill wound on Richard's skull, I wonder whether the King was on his knees when it was received.

Richard would almost certainly have been used to wearing full plate, though as I have said, I believe that outside immediate deployment for battle, some lighter combination of pieces would have been worn.


Phil H

I've actually been puzzling about that wound. Not the shape or condition of it, that seems clear to me. It's the placement. It looks for all the world like an upward hit to the base/side of the skull. Now a good bludgeoning in plate armor looks like a stabbing and cutting. The metal caved in and cut the flesh and bone (actually it looks like an alien burst out of the victim. There is a distinct chewed quality). And you can see that on the head wound. It looks both cut and pulverized. So it looks like the blow that sheared that off, whatever made it, buckled the helm so that it cut into the skull. This is also why you don't wear steel toe boots around horses, FYI. I had to have a toe stitched back on. Moral of the story, trust your ostler.

Frankly, if his helm had not been on as is the story, his head should be in a lot worse shape. That should be a catastrophic wound, resulting in such damage that his skull should have been many pieces.It was so powerful there are cut marks on the opposite interior of the skull. But it looks like some of the blunt force got distributed, and some of the damage converted to sharp force, which indicates his helm being on when he got that wound. Which I don't have a problem with. But if it was an execution a: his helm would have been off, and b: they wouldn't have hit him, as we southerners say, upside the head. (In case you ever wondered where upside the head is, Richard's hole pretty much encompasses it.) Sword in the chest, beheading, sometimes even disemboweling, but not some awkward hit to the head. So helm or no helm, something doesn't work here.

But there is a story that as Richard's body was taken over a bridge he has passed earlier, and his head struck against the same place he had kicked earlier. Or some such. It's weird prophecy. But slung over a saddle face down whacking into a wall is a really good way to hit just there on the skull. So I wonder about that.

I'm wondering if it's postmortem. It is absolutely A fatal blow. But I don't know that it was THE fatal blow. The other head wound is a sword thrust, it has no blunt impact signs. In fact every other head wound appears to be a sword blow. My guess is that he got spiked in the head, which did a little damage but more importantly, took his helmet off. Then some swordsman behind him started hacking away at his head Shaving off bits of the back of the skull, and then he closed in and thrust his sword in behind the right ear. It's my guess.

But if the catastrophic head wound was the fatal blow, I think it has to be a blunt hit with the helm creating the sharp force trauma consistent with an axe. Basically, a mace hit that drove the helm inward. Now I respect these archeologists a great deal, but I firmly believe they would never suggest it was a halberd wound if they had ever tried to use a halberd. It's a useless piece of wood against anything but horsemen. There is an old 14th century? text call Tollhoffer's Medieval Combat. It shows you how to fight with any weapon in a variety of situation. How to fight in a hole for example. For halberds, the combat master say that the best way to use a halberd is to drop it, tackle the other guy and stab him with a knife. True story. Awful clumsy things that put more of my fighter kids in the ER than any other weapon.

But I confess to a certain morbid curiosity. If it was sharp force trauma what sheared off the skull and flesh and hair, etc. what did they do with the brain? I mean, movies show brains leaking out but they actually don't. It's a firm organ, all one piece. I mean they pick him up, sling him over the horse, with this giant hole in his head, and there is the guys brain, for the world to see. The wound isn't quite big enough for the organ to fall out. If it was blunt force with some shearing from the helm, a: getting the helm off would be no picnic but b: it wouldn't be a hole so much as several tears. Certainly not a window into the brain. So did they take it out so they could just stare at an empty hole instead? Wrap his head up? Put a helmet on him? Put a bucket around his neck just in case? It's the thrown on a horse part that gets me with this. If he was in a cart, no problems. Dangling off a horse? There's a certain awful three stooges like comedy that can come from that. So I wonder. It's why I lean towards a post mortem whack to the head that didn't necessarily break skin. He would have a big mushy spot like a newborn, but not "Is that Richa- WOAH... wanna cover that up man?". Hitting a bridge rail doesn't really explain the shear, unless his skull was already cracked in that area so when he hit something a big chunk of bone just came off... I don't know. That's just not a wound you can pretty up for a town.

So that was rambling, but it's what been going through my head on that subject.

[RivkahChaya]

If Richard had a back curvature that was getting progressively worse, he would have needed armor to be refitted pretty often, or would have needed something flexible. If I understand what plate-mail is, it might have given him that flexibility.

On the other hand, very well-fitted full armor of some kind, designed just for him may have taken the pressure off his spine, and lessened any pain he was experiencing.

[Phil H]

On the whole the design of that film is pretty good.

It is a shame it is so little seen. I have yet to find it on dvd, and have an old video taped from the TV (but now no video player!!).

Phil

[Steve S]

I've always wanted a Brigandine....... Taylor's kit is actually based on period illustrations of the Scots Archers of the French king,so '50's Hollywood sometimes got it right.........

[Phil H]

No need for apologies Errata. Far from it: intelligent discussion expands everyones' horizons. I have learned and been compelled to get my own thoughts in order - always valuable.

The usual view of Richard's end is that his horse - White Surrey - was brought down (hence Shakespeare's immortal cry) and that he then fought on, on foot, in the thickest press of his enemies. I always imagine him being under a sort of rugby scrum in his final moments.

James IV) of Scotland was, of course, famously pulled down by a bill at Flodden, not that many years later.

Given the position of the halberd/bill wound on Richard's skull, I wonder whether the King was on his knees when it was received.

Richard would almost certainly have been used to wearing full plate, though as I have said, I believe that outside immediate deployment for battle, some lighter combination of pieces would have been worn.

If you ever see the Robert Taylor (1950s) film version of "Quentin Durward" - he wears armour that consists of full plate legs and arm protection, as well as a lower breast plate and gorget, but with a brigandine covered in blue velvet studded with gilt nails, over his torso. I could well have seen the King wearing something like that on the march or when recconnoitering.

Phil H