Dyatlov Pass incident

[Herlock Sholmes]

A weary and confused Barn reporting in from the pass.

What a bloody slog this book was!

I have read several books on the Dyatlov Pass incident, but none of them really helped me in wading through this book.
I agree with you Miss D, that the tree suddenly popping up a few pages from the end was very, very strange indeed. The only connection to a tree that I can remember being mentioned, was the fact that some pine needles were found on one of the corpses. Not too unusual, you might think on the edge of a forest!

A few thoughts in general.

1. There was clearly some tension within the group, but I am not convinced that any tensions within the group contributed to the tragedy.

2. The terrain was incredibly hostile, the weather conditions were terrible, and the distances covered by the group on a daily basis must have been energy sapping.

3. Russian bureaucracy undoubtedly contributed to the many mistakes made in the search and recovery missions.

4. Before the "magic tree" appeared, my feeling is that all the relevant evidence points to a slow movement of snow, not quite an avalanche, that pushed against the tent forcing the group to cut the tent from inside and clamber out.

Now to the main problems with the book. I was puzzled at first by the very many clumsy mistranslations that litter the book. I was also puzzled that any publisher would agree for a book to be published, presumably after being proof-read several times, with so many examples of strangled english.

I checked who actually published the book............and right there was the answer!
On the last page of the book are the words "Printed in Great Britain by Amazon".
I remembered seeing these words fairly recently in another book which had a very high number of typos and other glaring mistakes.
It was in Rob Clack's excellent book "Jack the Ripper: The Scenes of Crime".

I can only assume that when a book is printed by Amazon, it is "proof-read" by machine!
There can be no other explanation for the many typos etc in both books.
No Proof-Reader worth their salt would let so many errors slip through.

So these are my rambling thoughts on the book.

There is always a weird sense of achievement when you make it to the end of a "difficult" book, and this book is up there with some of the most "difficult" books I have ever tackled. And I confess that if I didn't have fellow travellers who were reading it with me, I may very well have packed it in before finishing it.

Well done fellow travellers! I feel that we have a bond that will never be broken.

Talk of the devil and he appears.

100% agree with everything you write Barn. A well researched but close to unreadable book. Why so many good reviews? I can only think that ego might have crept in and that some reviewers didn’t want to appear thick by saying that it wasn’t easy to understand. Well anyone can call me thick because that book wasn’t easy to understand.

A trip to the Dyatlov Pass would seem like a piece of cake compared to reading this book.

Onto my next challenge - Five Go Off In A Caravan by Enid Blyten

[Herlock Sholmes]

Well, Herlock!

Whilst you and Trevor have been slugging it out over on the Druitt thread just like Ollie Reed and Alan Bates in Women In Love (!!!), I have been re-reading some bits of the book and contemplating this new Dyatlov theory.

On consideration, I can't help but think that if things had played out like the scenario proposed in the book, the Mansi huntsmen would have known that something was off with the scene.

I get that the Russian search party may have been oblivious to the staging of the scene, but the Mansi's survival depends on them being able to interpret the snow and topography etc.

I reckon they would have smelled a rat.

Also, speaking of the Mansi, what on earth was all that stuff in the book about the Mansi brothers who were maybe part of the search team, but maybe not????

Then there were some other Mansi in the area from a different settlement who were thought to be dangerous???

I'm afraid that whole bit went right over my head.

Did you manage to make any sense of that?

Did that have any relevance to the final theory or was it just superfluous filler.

Despite biting the bullet and re-reading some bits again, I'm afraid my eyes glazed over again and I'm still none the wiser!

Perhaps when Barn gets back from The Pass, he can shed some light on this too!

As you know by now Ms D I’m not the easiest person to convince of a cover up. They happen of course but it’s often far too easy to go down that route by being signposted by what are actually simple errors. That said, if any country was going to cover up something like this it would be Soviet Russia.

Couldn’t a falling tree have simply been explained as a result of an extreme wind? How many would they have had to have silenced? The Mansi being the case in point, as you say, of course. These guys are the Sherlock Holmes’s of the region and would have been able to point out the tracks of a bear with a limp. I remember the Aussie backpacker case and the arrest of Bradley Murdoch. Joanna Lees said that she ran into the outback and hid behind a bush which she pointed out to the police who bought in Aborigine trackers. They said that no way had anyone hid behind that bush. So could they have fooled the Mansi or forced them to keep quiet? I don’t know.

The part about the Mansi brothers was totally unclear. A symptom of the entire book. This might be in the running to win the ‘most disappointing book’ award. The research was there. The knowledge was there. But the writing skills were close to non-existent. I’ve read more readable instruction manuals.

Maybe Barn or Filby had better luck but as neither of them were born in Soviet-era Russia as far as we know I doubt it.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Well, Herlock!

Whilst you and Trevor have been slugging it out over on the Druitt thread just like Ollie Reed and Alan Bates in Women In Love (!!!), I have been re-reading some bits of the book and contemplating this new Dyatlov theory.

On consideration, I can't help but think that if things had played out like the scenario proposed in the book, the Mansi huntsmen would have known that something was off with the scene.

I get that the Russian search party may have been oblivious to the staging of the scene, but the Mansi's survival depends on them being able to interpret the snow and topography etc.

I reckon they would have smelled a rat.

Also, speaking of the Mansi, what on earth was all that stuff in the book about the Mansi brothers who were maybe part of the search team, but maybe not????

Then there were some other Mansi in the area from a different settlement who were thought to be dangerous???

I'm afraid that whole bit went right over my head.

Did you manage to make any sense of that?

Did that have any relevance to the final theory or was it just superfluous filler.

Despite biting the bullet and re-reading some bits again, I'm afraid my eyes glazed over again and I'm still none the wiser!

Perhaps when Barn gets back from The Pass, he can shed some light on this too!

A weary and confused Barn reporting in from the pass.

What a bloody slog this book was!

I have read several books on the Dyatlov Pass incident, but none of them really helped me in wading through this book.
I agree with you Miss D, that the tree suddenly popping up a few pages from the end was very, very strange indeed. The only connection to a tree that I can remember being mentioned, was the fact that some pine needles were found on one of the corpses. Not too unusual, you might think on the edge of a forest!

A few thoughts in general.

1. There was clearly some tension within the group, but I am not convinced that any tensions within the group contributed to the tragedy.

2. The terrain was incredibly hostile, the weather conditions were terrible, and the distances covered by the group on a daily basis must have been energy sapping.

3. Russian bureaucracy undoubtedly contributed to the many mistakes made in the search and recovery missions.

4. Before the "magic tree" appeared, my feeling is that all the relevant evidence points to a slow movement of snow, not quite an avalanche, that pushed against the tent forcing the group to cut the tent from inside and clamber out.

Now to the main problems with the book. I was puzzled at first by the very many clumsy mistranslations that litter the book. I was also puzzled that any publisher would agree for a book to be published, presumably after being proof-read several times, with so many examples of strangled english.

I checked who actually published the book............and right there was the answer!
On the last page of the book are the words "Printed in Great Britain by Amazon".
I remembered seeing these words fairly recently in another book which had a very high number of typos and other glaring mistakes.
It was in Rob Clack's excellent book "Jack the Ripper: The Scenes of Crime".

I can only assume that when a book is printed by Amazon, it is "proof-read" by machine!
There can be no other explanation for the many typos etc in both books.
No Proof-Reader worth their salt would let so many errors slip through.

So these are my rambling thoughts on the book.

There is always a weird sense of achievement when you make it to the end of a "difficult" book, and this book is up there with some of the most "difficult" books I have ever tackled. And I confess that if I didn't have fellow travellers who were reading it with me, I may very well have packed it in before finishing it.

Well done fellow travellers! I feel that we have a bond that will never be broken.

[Ms Diddles]

Well, Herlock!

Whilst you and Trevor have been slugging it out over on the Druitt thread just like Ollie Reed and Alan Bates in Women In Love (!!!), I have been re-reading some bits of the book and contemplating this new Dyatlov theory.

On consideration, I can't help but think that if things had played out like the scenario proposed in the book, the Mansi huntsmen would have known that something was off with the scene.

I get that the Russian search party may have been oblivious to the staging of the scene, but the Mansi's survival depends on them being able to interpret the snow and topography etc.

I reckon they would have smelled a rat.

Also, speaking of the Mansi, what on earth was all that stuff in the book about the Mansi brothers who were maybe part of the search team, but maybe not????

Then there were some other Mansi in the area from a different settlement who were thought to be dangerous???

I'm afraid that whole bit went right over my head.

Did you manage to make any sense of that?

Did that have any relevance to the final theory or was it just superfluous filler.

Despite biting the bullet and re-reading some bits again, I'm afraid my eyes glazed over again and I'm still none the wiser!

Perhaps when Barn gets back from The Pass, he can shed some light on this too!

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hahahahaha!

Well done, Herlock!

You've made it through, and I'm not in a clinic (although that was a close fought thing!!).

Yep, that is indeed the theory, but like you I don't feel qualified to give a very coherent assessment of it because I just couldn't get my head round the sources at all.

When the tree suddenly appeared right at the very end, my initial reaction was "where the f@#! did that come from??!!" until I recalled from many longwinded reports earlier, the geologists searching for magnetic anomalies which could indicate the presence of uranium....something about explosions using oxygen....??

I usually dislike being spoon-fed by an author, but in this case I was crying out for a cohesive synopsis explaining all the different facets of the theory, but then the tree fell, the book ended and I was left staring into space and scratching my head.

I honestly don't think that the issue was your (or my) lack of knowledge of the case.

I think it was just that the presentation of the book was completely inpenetrable, and perhaps a lack of familiarity with Soviet era Russia played a part??

That combined with the wonky translation and it was a struggle.

Like I say, I don't feel equipped to really assess the theory except to say that moving the tent and the associated cover up seems rather a labour intensive way of going about things.

It was the middle of nowhere.

Couldn't they have just disappeared the bodies and moved the tent slightly away from the trees?

I also had reservations about the explanation for the bits of clothing found on the hikers in the ravine which had come from clothing worn by the guys found by the cedar tree, but I'm not sure that I picked up on that correctly.

I may try and read that bit again (if I'm feeling masochistic!)

Let's hope Barn or Filby have some more insight!

Wodehouse time, Herlock??

Sorry Ms D, I missed this post. Mind you it’s difficult to keep an eye on other threads when you’re down insane rabbit-holes with Trevor

Im sure that it’s a reasonable theory and who knows, it might be the one, but what a nightmare of a book to digest. Far too much background a far too little on the theory itself. Far too much detail that, as far as I could see, achieved nothing toward the big picture. A real pity. If any book needs a re-write this is it.

Ill be interested to hear what Barn and Filby think. I thought Barn would have finished long before now unless he’s taken a flight over to Russia and is trecking up to the Pass as we speak? He’s Scottish so the cold won’t be an issue. Either that or he’s having trouble typing in a straight jacket.

Ive just had Wodehouse first novel delivered but I’m reading the updated In God’s Name by David Yallop first. I read it years ago. Excellent book btw.

[Ms Diddles]

Well I finally finished 1079 and I stand by my first comment that whilst the book appears to have been really researched in depth it was certainly ‘hard work’ to say the least. And because it was such heavy going it’s so difficult for a complete newbie to the subject to make an assessment. Even at the end they didn’t give a clear and precise run through of what they thought happened and the ensuing cover-up. I just got hopelessly lost in endless dates, obscure events like committee meetings and this protocol and sheesh! I think it speaks volumes when you can read through a book and not be 100% what the authors are claiming happened and in what order and who did what. Too many geographical locations for me too. For pretty much every page I found myself having to turn back to the map to try and get my bearings. Someone that has lived and breathed this case for thirty years will probably lap this up. But for a general reader I’d say that this book was very poorly written. Nowhere near clear enough.

The theory appears to be, unless Ms D and Barn tell me I’ve got it wrong (and I wouldn’t argue if they did) is that it was down to geological explorations using explosives? An explosive occurred and a tree fell on the tent, some managed to get out but were killed by the weather conditions. The authorities then tried to cover this up by moving the tent to another location so that it didn’t look like an explosion had occurred and that it was simply a natural weather phenomenon?

Im really interested to hear the thoughts of Ms D and Barn on this. Assuming that they haven’t been admitted to a clinic by now.

The theory is possible I guess but to really assess it properly I’d need to read the book again. Probably more than once, plus the data on the website and there’s more chance of Barn going to an England v Scotland game at Hampden wearing an England top and carrying a scarf that said ‘Robert The Bruce Was A W****er,’ than me doing that.

Hahahahaha!

Well done, Herlock!

You've made it through, and I'm not in a clinic (although that was a close fought thing!!).

Yep, that is indeed the theory, but like you I don't feel qualified to give a very coherent assessment of it because I just couldn't get my head round the sources at all.

When the tree suddenly appeared right at the very end, my initial reaction was "where the f@#! did that come from??!!" until I recalled from many longwinded reports earlier, the geologists searching for magnetic anomalies which could indicate the presence of uranium....something about explosions using oxygen....??

I usually dislike being spoon-fed by an author, but in this case I was crying out for a cohesive synopsis explaining all the different facets of the theory, but then the tree fell, the book ended and I was left staring into space and scratching my head.

I honestly don't think that the issue was your (or my) lack of knowledge of the case.

I think it was just that the presentation of the book was completely inpenetrable, and perhaps a lack of familiarity with Soviet era Russia played a part??

That combined with the wonky translation and it was a struggle.

Like I say, I don't feel equipped to really assess the theory except to say that moving the tent and the associated cover up seems rather a labour intensive way of going about things.

It was the middle of nowhere.

Couldn't they have just disappeared the bodies and moved the tent slightly away from the trees?

I also had reservations about the explanation for the bits of clothing found on the hikers in the ravine which had come from clothing worn by the guys found by the cedar tree, but I'm not sure that I picked up on that correctly.

I may try and read that bit again (if I'm feeling masochistic!)

Let's hope Barn or Filby have some more insight!

Wodehouse time, Herlock??

[Herlock Sholmes]

Well I finally finished 1079 and I stand by my first comment that whilst the book appears to have been really researched in depth it was certainly ‘hard work’ to say the least. And because it was such heavy going it’s so difficult for a complete newbie to the subject to make an assessment. Even at the end they didn’t give a clear and precise run through of what they thought happened and the ensuing cover-up. I just got hopelessly lost in endless dates, obscure events like committee meetings and this protocol and sheesh! I think it speaks volumes when you can read through a book and not be 100% what the authors are claiming happened and in what order and who did what. Too many geographical locations for me too. For pretty much every page I found myself having to turn back to the map to try and get my bearings. Someone that has lived and breathed this case for thirty years will probably lap this up. But for a general reader I’d say that this book was very poorly written. Nowhere near clear enough.

The theory appears to be, unless Ms D and Barn tell me I’ve got it wrong (and I wouldn’t argue if they did) is that it was down to geological explorations using explosives? An explosive occurred and a tree fell on the tent, some managed to get out but were killed by the weather conditions. The authorities then tried to cover this up by moving the tent to another location so that it didn’t look like an explosion had occurred and that it was simply a natural weather phenomenon?

Im really interested to hear the thoughts of Ms D and Barn on this. Assuming that they haven’t been admitted to a clinic by now.

The theory is possible I guess but to really assess it properly I’d need to read the book again. Probably more than once, plus the data on the website and there’s more chance of Barn going to an England v Scotland game at Hampden wearing an England top and carrying a scarf that said ‘Robert The Bruce Was A W****er,’ than me doing that.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thanks for this Herlock, I'll dip into them immediately. In these crazy days I think that we all need a bit of humour in our lives. I've got all the Tom Sharpe books, and they are wonderfully funny, but the gentle humour of Wodehouse has been calling me for a while.

Time to jump in.

No problem Barn.

I think that I really need to do the same one day with Tom Sharpe. I know that I’ve read Porterhouse Blue but it must have been 30+ years ago so I can remember little about it. Likewise I can remember Prterhouse Blue and Blott On The Lanscape being adapted for tv but I saw them. I’ll keep an eye open the next time I’m trawling the charity shops.

Btw, talking about comedy. Did you ever take a look at the three Scoundrels books which were regularly advertised in Viz? Brilliant stuff (Al Bundy’s Eyes will back me up on this one)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoundrels_(novel)

[barnflatwyngarde]

Barn and c.d. where to start? I haven’t read everything by Wodehouse but I’ve read a fair bit. In fact I’ve decided to start at the beginning and get everything he’s written and read them all in order. I’ve started by ordering The Pothunters which is his first book.

Two easy suggestions though for anyone wanting to read some Wodehouse for the first time are his two most famous series of books. First the Blandibgs Castle series of which I think there are 11 novels. All brilliant imo.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blandings_Castle

Then of course there are the Jeeves and Wooster stories which are, for me, as close to perfect as you can get. You can read them in any order so I’d suggest buying a collection of the short stories which are easy to come by and are cheap. Have fun meeting Gussie Fink-Nottle, the fearsome Aunt Agatha, Stilton Cheesewright, Roderick Spode and Honoria Glossop. About as English as it gets.

Btw, if you like them I’d absolutely recommend getting the boxed set of the tv series starring Stephen Fry and Hugh Laurie.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeeves

This is a great piece by Stephen Fry on Wodehouse. Fry pretty much worships him.

http://www.pgwodehousebooks.com/fry.htm

I hope you love them (but don’t tell me if you don’t like them because I’d be too wounded)

Thanks for this Herlock, I'll dip into them immediately. In these crazy days I think that we all need a bit of humour in our lives. I've got all the Tom Sharpe books, and they are wonderfully funny, but the gentle humour of Wodehouse has been calling me for a while.

Time to jump in.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Barn and c.d. where to start? I haven’t read everything by Wodehouse but I’ve read a fair bit. In fact I’ve decided to start at the beginning and get everything he’s written and read them all in order. I’ve started by ordering The Pothunters which is his first book.

Two easy suggestions though for anyone wanting to read some Wodehouse for the first time are his two most famous series of books. First the Blandibgs Castle series of which I think there are 11 novels. All brilliant imo.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blandings_Castle

Then of course there are the Jeeves and Wooster stories which are, for me, as close to perfect as you can get. You can read them in any order so I’d suggest buying a collection of the short stories which are easy to come by and are cheap. Have fun meeting Gussie Fink-Nottle, the fearsome Aunt Agatha, Stilton Cheesewright, Roderick Spode and Honoria Glossop. About as English as it gets.

Btw, if you like them I’d absolutely recommend getting the boxed set of the tv series starring Stephen Fry and Hugh Laurie.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeeves

This is a great piece by Stephen Fry on Wodehouse. Fry pretty much worships him.

http://www.pgwodehousebooks.com/fry.htm

I hope you love them (but don’t tell me if you don’t like them because I’d be too wounded)

[Ms Diddles]

[QUOTE=c.d.;n787573]

I am new to Wodehouse as well and just researched the exact same thing. Still would like to hear recommendations from Herlock and Ms. Diddle.

https://honoriaplum.com/2017/01/22/p-g-wodehouse-reading-list-the-jeeves-and-wooster-stories/

c.d.

Sorry c.d.

I must confess to never having read Wodehouse, although I have friends who love him.

I too will await Herlock's recommendations...

[c.d.]

[QUOTE=barnflatwyngarde;n787572]

Herlock, I'm a stranger to Plum.

Could you suggest the best book to start my journey.

I am new to Wodehouse as well and just researched the exact same thing. Still would like to hear recommendations from Herlock and Ms. Diddle.

https://honoriaplum.com/2017/01/22/p-g-wodehouse-reading-list-the-jeeves-and-wooster-stories/

c.d.

[barnflatwyngarde]

[QUOTE=Herlock Sholmes;n787569]

Wodehouse is one of my favourites. If I ever feel a bit down I just read a bit of Wodehouse and I find myself sitting there with a permanent smile on my face.

Herlock, I'm a stranger to Plum.

Could you suggest the best book to start my journey.

[Ms Diddles]

Diddy!

[Herlock Sholmes]

[QUOTE=Ms Diddles;n787565]

It’s just a pity that they didn’t take advice before publishing on the books readability. The biog’s that you mentioned within the text would have been better as footnotes for a start and it’s difficult to see how a lot of the information that’s being presented (I’m at page 150 so far) will be relevant in the end so you get the impression of overkill which swamps the reader in an information overload. I’m not for a minute saying that it’s not a worthwhile book (whatever it’s conclusion) because the research appears really detailed. Not enough attention paid to readability though.

My number one btw still gives me nightmares I was having a period of interest in the JFK assassination and I read a book called Best Evidence by David Lifton. 6 or 700 pages I think, of small text all on the premise that Kennedy’s body was operated upon on Airforce One to alter the bullet wounds so as give a false trajectory and so disguise the fact that there were more than one gunman. It was like reading a medical textbook! I stubbornly battled though it; hating every minute of it To de-toxify my brain a had to read PG Wodehouse for a fortnight to bring me back from the brink.[/QUOT

On reflection, I like the idea of Wodehouse as a kind of decontamination therapy.

Kind of like a nice champagne sorbet palate cleanser between rich courses at dinner!!!

Wodehouse is one of my favourites. If I ever feel a bit down I just read a bit of Wodehouse and I find myself sitting there with a permanent smile on my face.