Eurozone Groan

[mariab]

Actually, I'm AGAINST a strong state and I'm all for privatization, but something has to be done against the outrageous stuff going on with the banks – and Wall Street. In the EU this should be attemped both nationally/locally and centrally, and obviously I'm aware of the huge problems (both in politics and bureaucracy) which stand in the way.

[Fleetwood Mac]

To Fleetwood Mac:
No time to debate on this, as I really have to get back to (extremely boring) work. The short version of it: The EU is not a “Revolution“ or a “dream“, but continental Europe's inevitable development.

And, of course you're welcome to it.

But, don't kid yourselves.

You all have form for believing that a strong state can resolve your problems, only to find out that the strong state adds to your problems.

You've been here so many times, with superstates and militarism, and bizarrely you continue to call for even stronger states with increased state power and more people to call on for the centralised state to have its disposal; and use for whatever means it sees fit.

Yes, I agree. It is the inevitable development of your history. Lurching from one disaster to another.

Your call, Maria. Good luck.

[mariab]

To Fleetwood Mac:
No time to debate on this, as I really have to get back to (extremely boring) work. The short version of it: The EU is not a “Revolution“ or a “dream“, but continental Europe's inevitable development.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Still, like Heinrich remarked, the EU is certainly NOT just a “customs union“ or a "common market" anymore, it's inescapably heading towards some form of federalism

Ah yes, is that European man I hear urging one another toward the greater goal?; the virtuous Europeans striving for political harmony by means of the state's overreaching powers (now there's a contradiction in terms if ever there was one).

God, the French. Dear me, do those people ever learn? They've been at this since the 1700s when the state syphoned off pretty much all of the revenue brought in through exports.

You see, you've been here before: the French Revolution (and the countless other coups and uprisings), which soon turned into tyranny; and the Russian Revolution, and the German revolutions (and countless coups and uprisings).

Don't you see? It's a myth; a grand ideal with no substance; there is no virtuous human being on this planet.

It'll end in disaster.....just hope I'm alive to see it!

[Robert]

This has to be one of the more hilarious moments in the history of the "European dream."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/297461.stm

[Robert]

The British people were warned at the time of the referendum in 1975 that the real aim of the Common Market was a European superstate. Nevertheless two thirds of them voted to say in. They are now paying the penalty for being so stupid.

I am a patriotic Briton, but I have to say that the British people deserve to be kicked from one end of Europe to the other and then back again.

[Limehouse]

[QUOTE=mariab;197282]Love the “to some extent“ part. Should I mention Tony Blair, the Irak war?
:-)
QUOTE]

Bombing Iraq was unacceptable and we should have told Bush to get lost.

However, politically, although we bang the so-called 'democracy' drum as loudly as the Americans, we don't have a federal and presidential system so there are significant differences politically, but that's true for some of our friends in Europe too.

[mariab]

We have also always been heavily influenced by America culturally, economically and to some extent, politically

Love the “to some extent“ part. Should I mention Tony Blair, the Irak war?
:-)

You know that German war aims at the outset of WW1 amounted to a German led continental European customs union? The pen really is mightier than the sword eh.

Yes I know, and I agree about the pen vs. the sword.
Still, like Heinrich remarked, the EU is certainly NOT just a “customs union“ or a "common market" anymore, it's inescapably heading towards some form of federalism, and since lately (since the Irak war) it's obvious that we have developped a common identity, not just culturally, but also politically. We just have to figure out the financial part presently, which is no piece of cake.

And by the by, pertaining to Fleetwood Mac's remark about control in the EU (and world power), it's not by accident that I've arranged it so that I work and live precisely in Germany, France, and the US. ;-)

[Limehouse]

It is a feature of the left that they tend to claim that we are dominated by the Americans at the expense of our relationship with the Europeans.

That is nonsense. Absolute garbage.

British foreign policy, centuries prior to the US's rise, was always one of apathy towards continental Europe. You see, Limehouse, there was nothing for us in continental Europe; our interests lay in global commerce. By and large, continental Europeans were seen as trouble with conflicts breaking out here, there and everywhere. We only ever got involved when our global trade interests were threatened: Napoleon, WW1 etc.

Britain is a nation that has always left herself free to decide. On the eve of WW1, we hadn't committed ourselves to France nor Germany. It is the same today: we are free to decide providing we maintain good relations while not tieing ourselves into a binding contract. And, quite right too.

And let's be honest, they have always viewed us with the same sense of marked difference in attitude. You can see it in the political philosophy of Europe when compared with us: logical positivism instructs our thought in a way lost on the Europeans.

In reality, it is not us who agree with the Americans; it is the Americans who agree with us. Our political thought was shaped long before the inception and rise of the US.

I agree with most of the points you have made, except that I never said we are or were dominated by America, I said we were influenced - and yes - you are right - that is partly because of the values taken to America in the first place by the Pilgrim Fathers - but it is also because of our historical apathy towards some aspects of European culture and ideas.

[Heinrich]

We believe it to be a trading Union but support Turkish involvement in order for it not to become a political Union? This is rather contradictory. It suggests we knew all along it was intended to be a political Union.

The English have all along feared the achievement of the stated goal of "an ever closer union" and, rather wishfully, continued to act as if it were merely a "common market". The increase in membership before fixing the constitutional political goal has been problematical and, with the entry of England's protege, Turkey, given its size, cultural, and religious differences to Europe, would have put paid to the type of political unity which has always been on the cards. "Associate membership" which is enjoyed by Turkey today, essentially limiting its participation to a preferential trading relationship might suit England too.
Regarding the idea that the English are not really Europeans and like being different, it is true that the dismantling of English manufacturing and industrial production in favor of being financial shopkeepers, that is middlemen who produce nothing but get money from others by speculative banking in the City of London, while consistent with the ethos of the governing party, is considered somewhat foolish, even contemptible, to the European mentality.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I happen to think that before the UK even considers a serious debate about entering the Eurozone, first they should learn to drive like normal people.

In a roundabout way you've hit the nail right on the head.

We don't want to conform to your normality. We want to be different. We have a history of doing it our own way, and we like it like that.

And, that is, broadly speaking, the whole problem with us and Europe.

Time we got out; most of us want out.

I've had some good times in Germany, Czech, Croatia, Holland etc.......but holidays are called holidays for a reason. Let's keep it that way.

Anyway, all this skirting about the issue. Shouldn't we just be honest here and say we don't really like Europe and Europe isn't too keen on us :-) True though ain't it.

[Fleetwood Mac]

We have also always been heavily influenced by America culturally, economically and to some extent, politically and that has made it difficult for some of our leaders, past and present, to embrace the full European ethos.

It is a feature of the left that they tend to claim that we are dominated by the Americans at the expense of our relationship with the Europeans.

That is nonsense. Absolute garbage.

British foreign policy, centuries prior to the US's rise, was always one of apathy towards continental Europe. You see, Limehouse, there was nothing for us in continental Europe; our interests lay in global commerce. By and large, continental Europeans were seen as trouble with conflicts breaking out here, there and everywhere. We only ever got involved when our global trade interests were threatened: Napoleon, WW1 etc.

Britain is a nation that has always left herself free to decide. On the eve of WW1, we hadn't committed ourselves to France nor Germany. It is the same today: we are free to decide providing we maintain good relations while not tieing ourselves into a binding contract. And, quite right too.

And let's be honest, they have always viewed us with the same sense of marked difference in attitude. You can see it in the political philosophy of Europe when compared with us: logical positivism instructs our thought in a way lost on the Europeans.

In reality, it is not us who agree with the Americans; it is the Americans who agree with us. Our political thought was shaped long before the inception and rise of the US.

[Fleetwood Mac]

And what's so wrong with that? ;-)

Nothing as it happens, Maria.

If the European countries are happy to play second fiddle to the Germans, then fair enough - their call.

You'll appreciate of course that we just can't play second fiddle to any European country - there'd be uproar here.

You know that German war aims at the outset of WW1 amounted to a German led continental European customs union? The pen really is mightier than the sword eh.

[Limehouse]

"us" would mean the English I suppose, Fleetwood Mac.
It seems that the English never really understood the "ever closer union" ideal embodied in the European Union, preferring to believe it was only a trading agreement. For this reason, England has been the most supportive of enlargement of the EU and the entry of Turkey and all and sundry so that political union would be impossible. The result is that England is somewhat on the perifery of the political partnership and is also outside the common currency as the eurozone is progressively building a single Europe-wide market in which people, goods, services, and capital move among Member States as freely as within one country.
England was never really ready for full participation and should probably leave and concentrate of their Commonwealth.

I can certainly agree with some of your points Heinrich and perhaps your last point is a reason why the Uk (and not just England) has not always embraced the EU politically. We had a Commonwealth with duties and economic ties outside Europe. We have also always been heavily influenced by America culturally, economically and to some extent, politically and that has made it difficult for some of our leaders, past and present, to embrace the full European ethos.

[mariab]

And, I think they should rename the EU and tell it how it is: "The German led European Customs Union With France Second in Command."

And what's so wrong with that? ;-)

We believe it to be a trading Union but support Turkish involvement in order for it not to become a political Union? This is rather contradictory. It suggests we knew all along it was intended to be a political Union.

The advertised consideration for a Turkey entrance in the EU has never been anything more substantial than a carrot on a stick. On the other side, a “special partnership“ with Turkey is crucial when there's trouble in the Middle East (as in permanently).

I happen to think that before the UK even considers a serious debate about entering the Eurozone, first they should learn to drive like normal people.