Eurozone Groan

[Robert]

Does anyone have any views on this subject?

[Limehouse]

Does anyone have any views on this subject?

Well firstly, I think it's very fortunate that the Uk did not join the single currency.

Secondly, I feel deeply sorry for the people in those countries most affected by the crisis - especially the young people as I believe youth unemployment is around 40% in some countries, for example - Italy.

Finally, I personally believe that it is capitalism in general that has created this crisis, rather than the single currency itself. It is a knock-on effect.

I don't know how it's all going to end but I fear it's going to get quite a lot more painful before a solution is found.

[mariab]

Youth unemployment in Germany is around 22%. Every third business is closing down due to bankruptcy (visible also in the tons of vacated shops on every street), there's a general freeze for the hiring of Assistant Professors in almost every field since 2 years, last year Opel almost went down and required a bailout from the German federal government, Germans practically can't afford going on vacation overseas anymore.

I'll be experiencing the situation in Greece first hand, as I'm flying there next week to take care of some bureaucracy and so that my mom and I can take care of securing our assets. The way the Greek government is (not) handling the crisis must be one of the most ridiculous, moronic situations occuring in Europe in the 21st century. Seems they're about to drop the current Prime Minister and concoct an emergency administration, but I'm not following the details, it's too moronic and embarrassing.

Clearly the Eurozone requires to be re-defined, possibly in a federalist(-ish) kind of structure, and some fashion of governmental control against the outrageous activity of the big banks must be introduced. The former reform is unavoidable, and it's bound to happen in the next decade. The latter is a huge problem, who knows if the politicians will ever have the vision and the guts to confront any of this.
I don't recall if it was André Malraux or Charles De Gaulle who said “Le XXème siècle sera pacifiste ou ne sera pas“ {“The 20th century will have to be pacifistic or will never survive“}, but to paraphrase him, “The 21th century must deal with the globalized economy or we'll never survive“.

[Fleetwood Mac]

From an economic standpoint, the ability to set your interest rates based on what the economy needs at a given point in time, is crucial.

From a political perspective, I want us out of the European Union. Couldn't care less about trading blocks and the like. The most important thing in life is to succeed or fail off your own back. Nothing against the French or Germans; the reality is that right or wrong we don't think like them.

[Heinrich]

"us" would mean the English I suppose, Fleetwood Mac.
It seems that the English never really understood the "ever closer union" ideal embodied in the European Union, preferring to believe it was only a trading agreement. For this reason, England has been the most supportive of enlargement of the EU and the entry of Turkey and all and sundry so that political union would be impossible. The result is that England is somewhat on the perifery of the political partnership and is also outside the common currency as the eurozone is progressively building a single Europe-wide market in which people, goods, services, and capital move among Member States as freely as within one country.
England was never really ready for full participation and should probably leave and concentrate of their Commonwealth.

[Fleetwood Mac]

"us" would mean the English I suppose, Fleetwood Mac.
It seems that the English never really understood the "ever closer union" ideal embodied in the European Union, preferring to believe it was only a trading agreement. For this reason, England has been the most supportive of enlargement of the EU and the entry of Turkey and all and sundry so that political union would be impossible. The result is that England is somewhat on the perifery of the political partnership and is also outside the common currency as the eurozone is progressively building a single Europe-wide market in which people, goods, services, and capital move among Member States as freely as within one country.
England was never really ready for full participation and should probably leave and concentrate of their Commonwealth.

I think there is a case to say we are European geographically, and there are historic ties, but politically I feel we are not European. We don't think like Europeans: the philosophical divide is evident.

I am all for good relations while maintaining control over our economic and political destiny.

Yes, I think it's best for all parties that we leave - we're pretty much a thorn in the side, anyway.

And, I think they should rename the EU and tell it how it is: "The German led European Customs Union With France Second in Command."

[jason_c]

"us" would mean the English I suppose, Fleetwood Mac.
It seems that the English never really understood the "ever closer union" ideal embodied in the European Union, preferring to believe it was only a trading agreement. For this reason, England has been the most supportive of enlargement of the EU and the entry of Turkey and all and sundry so that political union would be impossible. The result is that England is somewhat on the perifery of the political partnership and is also outside the common currency as the eurozone is progressively building a single Europe-wide market in which people, goods, services, and capital move among Member States as freely as within one country.
England was never really ready for full participation and should probably leave and concentrate of their Commonwealth.

We believe it to be a trading Union but support Turkish involvement in order for it not to become a political Union? This is rather contradictory. It suggests we knew all along it was intended to be a political Union.

[mariab]

And, I think they should rename the EU and tell it how it is: "The German led European Customs Union With France Second in Command."

And what's so wrong with that? ;-)

We believe it to be a trading Union but support Turkish involvement in order for it not to become a political Union? This is rather contradictory. It suggests we knew all along it was intended to be a political Union.

The advertised consideration for a Turkey entrance in the EU has never been anything more substantial than a carrot on a stick. On the other side, a “special partnership“ with Turkey is crucial when there's trouble in the Middle East (as in permanently).

I happen to think that before the UK even considers a serious debate about entering the Eurozone, first they should learn to drive like normal people.

[Limehouse]

"us" would mean the English I suppose, Fleetwood Mac.
It seems that the English never really understood the "ever closer union" ideal embodied in the European Union, preferring to believe it was only a trading agreement. For this reason, England has been the most supportive of enlargement of the EU and the entry of Turkey and all and sundry so that political union would be impossible. The result is that England is somewhat on the perifery of the political partnership and is also outside the common currency as the eurozone is progressively building a single Europe-wide market in which people, goods, services, and capital move among Member States as freely as within one country.
England was never really ready for full participation and should probably leave and concentrate of their Commonwealth.

I can certainly agree with some of your points Heinrich and perhaps your last point is a reason why the Uk (and not just England) has not always embraced the EU politically. We had a Commonwealth with duties and economic ties outside Europe. We have also always been heavily influenced by America culturally, economically and to some extent, politically and that has made it difficult for some of our leaders, past and present, to embrace the full European ethos.

[Fleetwood Mac]

And what's so wrong with that? ;-)

Nothing as it happens, Maria.

If the European countries are happy to play second fiddle to the Germans, then fair enough - their call.

You'll appreciate of course that we just can't play second fiddle to any European country - there'd be uproar here.

You know that German war aims at the outset of WW1 amounted to a German led continental European customs union? The pen really is mightier than the sword eh.

[Fleetwood Mac]

We have also always been heavily influenced by America culturally, economically and to some extent, politically and that has made it difficult for some of our leaders, past and present, to embrace the full European ethos.

It is a feature of the left that they tend to claim that we are dominated by the Americans at the expense of our relationship with the Europeans.

That is nonsense. Absolute garbage.

British foreign policy, centuries prior to the US's rise, was always one of apathy towards continental Europe. You see, Limehouse, there was nothing for us in continental Europe; our interests lay in global commerce. By and large, continental Europeans were seen as trouble with conflicts breaking out here, there and everywhere. We only ever got involved when our global trade interests were threatened: Napoleon, WW1 etc.

Britain is a nation that has always left herself free to decide. On the eve of WW1, we hadn't committed ourselves to France nor Germany. It is the same today: we are free to decide providing we maintain good relations while not tieing ourselves into a binding contract. And, quite right too.

And let's be honest, they have always viewed us with the same sense of marked difference in attitude. You can see it in the political philosophy of Europe when compared with us: logical positivism instructs our thought in a way lost on the Europeans.

In reality, it is not us who agree with the Americans; it is the Americans who agree with us. Our political thought was shaped long before the inception and rise of the US.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I happen to think that before the UK even considers a serious debate about entering the Eurozone, first they should learn to drive like normal people.

In a roundabout way you've hit the nail right on the head.

We don't want to conform to your normality. We want to be different. We have a history of doing it our own way, and we like it like that.

And, that is, broadly speaking, the whole problem with us and Europe.

Time we got out; most of us want out.

I've had some good times in Germany, Czech, Croatia, Holland etc.......but holidays are called holidays for a reason. Let's keep it that way.

Anyway, all this skirting about the issue. Shouldn't we just be honest here and say we don't really like Europe and Europe isn't too keen on us :-) True though ain't it.

[Heinrich]

We believe it to be a trading Union but support Turkish involvement in order for it not to become a political Union? This is rather contradictory. It suggests we knew all along it was intended to be a political Union.

The English have all along feared the achievement of the stated goal of "an ever closer union" and, rather wishfully, continued to act as if it were merely a "common market". The increase in membership before fixing the constitutional political goal has been problematical and, with the entry of England's protege, Turkey, given its size, cultural, and religious differences to Europe, would have put paid to the type of political unity which has always been on the cards. "Associate membership" which is enjoyed by Turkey today, essentially limiting its participation to a preferential trading relationship might suit England too.
Regarding the idea that the English are not really Europeans and like being different, it is true that the dismantling of English manufacturing and industrial production in favor of being financial shopkeepers, that is middlemen who produce nothing but get money from others by speculative banking in the City of London, while consistent with the ethos of the governing party, is considered somewhat foolish, even contemptible, to the European mentality.

[Limehouse]

It is a feature of the left that they tend to claim that we are dominated by the Americans at the expense of our relationship with the Europeans.

That is nonsense. Absolute garbage.

British foreign policy, centuries prior to the US's rise, was always one of apathy towards continental Europe. You see, Limehouse, there was nothing for us in continental Europe; our interests lay in global commerce. By and large, continental Europeans were seen as trouble with conflicts breaking out here, there and everywhere. We only ever got involved when our global trade interests were threatened: Napoleon, WW1 etc.

Britain is a nation that has always left herself free to decide. On the eve of WW1, we hadn't committed ourselves to France nor Germany. It is the same today: we are free to decide providing we maintain good relations while not tieing ourselves into a binding contract. And, quite right too.

And let's be honest, they have always viewed us with the same sense of marked difference in attitude. You can see it in the political philosophy of Europe when compared with us: logical positivism instructs our thought in a way lost on the Europeans.

In reality, it is not us who agree with the Americans; it is the Americans who agree with us. Our political thought was shaped long before the inception and rise of the US.

I agree with most of the points you have made, except that I never said we are or were dominated by America, I said we were influenced - and yes - you are right - that is partly because of the values taken to America in the first place by the Pilgrim Fathers - but it is also because of our historical apathy towards some aspects of European culture and ideas.

[mariab]

We have also always been heavily influenced by America culturally, economically and to some extent, politically

Love the “to some extent“ part. Should I mention Tony Blair, the Irak war?
:-)

You know that German war aims at the outset of WW1 amounted to a German led continental European customs union? The pen really is mightier than the sword eh.

Yes I know, and I agree about the pen vs. the sword.
Still, like Heinrich remarked, the EU is certainly NOT just a “customs union“ or a "common market" anymore, it's inescapably heading towards some form of federalism, and since lately (since the Irak war) it's obvious that we have developped a common identity, not just culturally, but also politically. We just have to figure out the financial part presently, which is no piece of cake.

And by the by, pertaining to Fleetwood Mac's remark about control in the EU (and world power), it's not by accident that I've arranged it so that I work and live precisely in Germany, France, and the US. ;-)