Eurozone Groan

[mariab]

As for WW2 - well this came about as a result of what was agreed after WW1 and that involved France, Britain and America. Germany was screwed and that allowed the rise of Hitler and the scapegoating he imposed on easy targets.

Limehouse is completely correct on this.

[mariab]

How many Reichs and Republics are we on now? Lost count a while back.

You're not wrong, but the French have always loved an uproar, and Germany is a relatively new country. It just got stabilized with its recent reunification.
And you know that the British killed one of their kings MUCH earlier than the French, only the British (typically) didn't make a fuss about it. ;-)

[Limehouse]

Aye, the left know all about the one true way to salvation.

I mean, they kill for it.

Left-wing politics and true democracy eh, god, who would have thought it?

Assuming the defintion of totalitarianism is censorship, and I feel this is a fair statement, and assuming the left will censor everything from 'the banks' to 'the racists' then I feel the left and democracy are at two opposing ends of the political spectrum.

What, you just want to make us all equal? I don't want to be 'equal'. Please, mind your own.

Who said anything about totalitarianism? Only you.

Norway manage democracy and left wing politics quite well - at least they did until a right-wing madman tried to put an end to it.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Who said anything about totalitarianism? Only you.

Norway manage democracy and left wing politics quite well - at least they did until a right-wing madman tried to put an end to it.

Yes, me Limehouse, I said that.

Because that's what left-wing politics is, although on a smaller scale than say Stalin. You want to ban/censor things, and that is the definition of totalitarianism. Now, I don't expect you to understand because the left, in their equality and fairness mission, have convinced themselves they're virtuous; and as such are totally blind to their totalitarian tendancies.

In essence, the left and the extreme right are the exact the same people. All wanting to ban stuff they don't like; the only difference being that you're shouting about different things.

And this ties in neatly with Europe. Always looking to the new, greatest ideal; never sceptical of what the government can actually achieve; always looking to relinquish more individual control over the individual's life.

There is one absolute constant: you give the government too much power and the lunatics will take over the asylum. They haven't grasped this in Europe.

[jason_c]

Limehouse is completely correct on this.

Which was as much due to Wilsonian ideals of nationhood. This lead to many ethnic Germans becoming minorities(sometimes persecuted) in numerous European states.

And yes, Germany paid next to nothing back in reparations. Certainly an insignificant amount compared to that which Germany has paid to the EU. Financially the post WW1 settlement wasnt overly harsh on Germany. The Germans themselves had demanded much harsher settlement from Bolshevik Russia at the treaty of Brest-Litovsk.

[Fleetwood Mac]

You're not wrong, but the French have always loved an uproar, and Germany is a relatively new country. It just got stabilized with its recent reunification.
And you know that the British killed one of their kings MUCH earlier than the French, only the British (typically) didn't make a fuss about it. ;-)

The point is, Maria, we learned the lesson much earlier; a lesson the Europeans are still struggling to come to grips with.

A lesson instructed by John Locke, which in part was a reaction to the worst excesses of the French state, which, at a time when France exported a lot of its goods around the world, syphoned off much of the revenue brought in.

And, it was this understanding in England, mainly tolerance and the freedom to pursue individual initiatives, which makes us different to you: you want more layers of government which can only mean greater state intrusion into your lives; whereas we have been successful on the back of individual initiatives.

We don't want to give that up. In a nutshell, we're more cycnical of government intentions and more sceptical when debating what the government can actually achieve.

You know, in France the government can have a new railway line knocked up in the crack; in England there are countless petitions "not in my back garden" and the process is much, much slower. Now, you could argue that there are economic benefits to the French government's control over everyday life, but, and it's a big but: the government are the servants of the people as opposed to the other way round.

[Limehouse]

Yes, me Limehouse, I said that.

Because that's what left-wing politics is, although on a smaller scale than say Stalin. You want to ban/censor things, and that is the definition of totalitarianism. Now, I don't expect you to understand because the left, in their equality and fairness mission, have convinced themselves they're virtuous; and as such are totally blind to their totalitarian tendancies.

In essence, the left and the extreme right are the exact the same people. All wanting to ban stuff they don't like; the only difference being that you're shouting about different things.

And this ties in neatly with Europe. Always looking to the new, greatest ideal; never sceptical of what the government can actually achieve; always looking to relinquish more individual control over the individual's life.

There is one absolute constant: you give the government too much power and the lunatics will take over the asylum. They haven't grasped this in Europe.

Firstly, I don't think you understand left-wing politics at all. For a start, 'the left' - as you keep calling it - is not one great homogenous lump. It is a range of ideas and ideals, opinions and plans, arguments and propositions. Additionally, it is not static, it is fluid and even - to some extent- in a state of flux. It is not established but contested and re-contested - just like other political and economic systems.

Secondly, you keeping telling us what we think and what we want to do ('you want to ban/censor things' bla, bla, bla) Well, yes - the left does want to censor some things (sex with children, the flogging of homosexuals, the gassing of Jews etc) - but that is not ALL the left does.

I agree with one thing though - the extreme left and the extreme right are identical - but most people do not position themselves within those extremes.

I certainly do not see the left as 'virtuous' because I see it as the natural state of things. It could just as easily be said that anyone's view, just becasue it is based on their principles, is seen by them as 'virtuous'.

[mariab]

And yes, Germany paid next to nothing back in reparations. Certainly an insignificant amount compared to that which Germany has paid to the EU. Financially the post WW1 settlement wasnt overly harsh on Germany. The Germans themselves had demanded much harsher settlement from Bolshevik Russia at the treaty of Brest-Litovsk.

Agree.

You know, in France the government can have a new railway line knocked up in the crack; in England there are countless petitions "not in my back garden" and the process is much, much slower.

Absolutely, and you can nicely compare this to the way the police operated between France and England during the Victorian era.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Firstly, I don't think you understand left-wing politics at all. For a start, 'the left' - as you keep calling it - is not one great homogenous lump. It is a range of ideas and ideals, opinions and plans, arguments and propositions.

Well, I suppose there are the social anarchists, e.g. Chomsky; then there is the bulk of the left who want more and more state instrusion into the individual's life.

What are you saying, Limehouse: you're happy to leave people to their own devices? Let me see: do you want to close down certain opinions?

It could just as easily be said that anyone's view, just becasue it is based on their principles, is seen by them as 'virtuous'.

Limehouse, it's you who doesn't understand.

You will ban stuff because you think you know better, i.e. the virtuous human being on an equality and fairness mission.

I will allow pretty much anything, because to me there is no one true way.

I can't stand the left, but they're entitled to their opinion.

You can't stand the BNP, and you want them banned.

See the difference?

[Fleetwood Mac]

Agree.

Absolutely, and you can nicely compare this to the way the police operated between France and England during the Victorian era.

Ah Maria. You know, I really like the Germans. Had some great times there. Last time I was there, I stayed in Spandau and spent a lot of my time in the pub talking to the locals. Always made welcome in Germany. It's just that I don't want to share government with them.

[Limehouse]

Well, I suppose there are the social anarchists, e.g. Chomsky; then there is the bulk of the left who want more and more state instrusion into the individual's life.

What are you saying, Limehouse: you're happy to leave people to their own devices? Let me see: do you want to close down certain opinions?



Limehouse, it's you who doesn't understand.

You will ban stuff because you think you know better, i.e. the virtuous human being on an equality and fairness mission.

I will allow pretty much anything, because to me there is no one true way.

I can't stand the left, but they're entitled to their opinion.

You can't stand the BNP, and you want them banned.

See the difference?

You keep telling me 'you will do this, you will do that' and you don't even know me! How do you know I feel virtuous? How do you know 'I think I know better?'

You don't know who I am so don't tell me what I think or what I want to do.

[Fleetwood Mac]

You keep telling me 'you will do this, you will do that' and you don't even know me! How do you know I feel virtuous? How do you know 'I think I know better?'

You don't know who I am so don't tell me what I think or what I want to do.

No, no.

Quite clearly I'm giving you my opinion.

History has proven left-wing policy to be fascist in nature.

You could prove me wrong here, Limehouse.

Two simple questions:

1) Do you want to close down certain opinions?
2) Do you feel that the answer to the nation's ills is to tax 'the rich' and 'business' in even greater amounts to give to the poor?

[mariab]

Ah Maria. You know, I really like the Germans. {...} It's just that I don't want to share government with them.

Probably the best people to share government with:
- They're well organised.
- They have a strong civic duty. (Rarely have the Germans experienced any great financial scandals, despite of the fact that in Bavaria a few times the dead are known to have voted, but Bavaria is a very special case, it has some Italian flair.)
- They're genuinely green.

So you really liked Spandau? ;-) I live just behind Wittenbergplatz.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Probably the best people to share government with:
- They're well organised.
- They have a strong civic duty. (Rarely have the Germans experienced any great financial scandals, despite of the fact that in Bavaria a few times the dead are known to have voted, but Bavaria is a very special case, it has some Italian flair.)
- They're genuinely green.

So you really liked Spandau? ;-) I live just behind Wittenbergplatz.

Hello Maria,

Walk around any English town and city and you will see absolutely shocking town planning. Buildings are knocked up with no real forethought, except let's get a building on that piece of land over there. So, the place is haphazard. It's part of the charm and beauty of England that everything isn't planned to the nth degree with streets where you can see down for miles because everything is in straight lines. English towns speak of individual initiative, not town council planning.

On the green issue, another difference. We are automatically sceptical of a grand idea such as 'the environment'. It's bread in the bone that, at least in part, these ideas are inevitably the vehicle of those pushing their agenda at the expense of what is actually happening. And, people love to herd behind ideas, which is why you have all sorts of people, presumably lacking the scientific wherewithal, including the apparatus in the basement, to verify the proposition. It is unbelievably arrogant to think that we, this species which watches endless reality television nonsense, can possibly kill the planet. The planet will outlast human existence.

I'm afraid we're just different, Maria. But that's a good thing. The world needs a spread of ideas; it's healthy. We don't need everyone merging into one form of government.

And, yes, I've been to Berlin about 4 or 5 times. Spent a full day in the German history museum. And spent quite a few days in the pubs over there. I just happened to be staying in Spandau one time, which is why I was in a few pubs round that place. As I say, I've always felt welcome in Germany, and I've always preferred visiting Central (I'd include Germany in that category) and Eastern Europe than Western Europe.

Just like to leave you with two anecdotes, Maria:

Martha Gellhorn the American journalist (I think she was married to Ernest Hemmingway) moved to England and said something like: "The thing with the English is that they're so sure of themselves. You see the Germans are always asking what you think of them; whereas the English don't give a damn: they're certain of their superiority".

I went touring round Europe with a few friends when I was 18. We'd been to France, Holland, Belguim and a couple of other places. Then went to Germany - Cologne first stop. In Holland we'd wrecked our tent, one of the lads had had too much beer and being 6'4 fell over the top of the tent and smashed the whole thing, so we couldn't put it up from then on. Rolled up in Cologne at a campsite and the Germans were there doing their professional thing with caravans the size of houses and grills outside with all sorts of meats being cooked on them. We turned up with out tent, as we couldn't put it up we just laid the canvass on the floor, had a tin of cold beans each with a slice of bread and headed into the town for a skinful of beer. Came back at 2 in the morning absolutely pie-eyed and just got under the tent like a quilt on the floor. Woke up in the morning with all the Germans staring at us like we were animals, which too be fair wasn't far from the truth.

You see, Maria, although Germany is one of my favourite countries and is awlays near the top of the list when I'm considering going anywhere, we're simply not like you. We're amateurs to a large extent, and yes, you are more professional in your approach.

I read one of your earlier posts about England being influenced by the US. That is a gross misrepresentation of England. We remain one of the most unique countries on this planet with a way of doing things and eccentricities that no one else understands. Just the way it should be :-)

[mariab]

I like it that you're quite unique and a bit isolated on your island.

The famous German inferiority complex is based on the fact that they're a fairly new nation. Just think about when the first German state was created vs. England, France, the rest of Europe.

The streets where you can see down for miles because everything is in straight lines also pertains to the fact that Germany got urbanized very late, almost in the mid 20th century. Compared this to Paris and London, even Naples! If you visit a few medieval German towns, you'll lose the straight lines.

And by the by, Berlin is incredibly chaotic. Construction everywhere, hindering everything, even the tube keeps changing its open stations.