Hillsborough

[Monty]

Jason,

I was merely stating pssible reasons as to why the PC said what he said to Phil.

The Heysal disaster bought the whole issue to a head, this mainly duie to its scale and impact throughout the whole of Europe and most of the world. The stigma that the Liverpool support had during that time carried through to 89 and Hillsborough, rightly or wrongly, it was there.

Justified? Hell no. I remember watching the game on TV and recall Juve fans setting about anyone and everyone with metal poles and any other weaponary to hand. Are they seen as calpable too? No. That fact is never raised.

Liverpool fans took the blame then however it was the violent few who caused that disaster. Yet the media labelled the antagonists as 'Liverpool supporters' and still do. The media influences and misguides, as you know.

Your club was tarnished, and carried the weight of blame for Heysal.

Monty

[Jason]

Jason,

I was merely stating pssible reasons as to why the PC said what he said to Phil.

The Heysal disaster bought the whole issue to a head, this mainly duie to its scale and impact throughout the whole of Europe and most of the world. The stigma that the Liverpool support had during that time carried through to 89 and Hillsborough, rightly or wrongly, it was there.

Justified? Hell no. I remember watching the game on TV and recall Juve fans setting about anyone and everyone with metal poles and any other weaponary to hand. Are they seen as calpable too? No. That fact is never raised.

Liverpool fans took the blame then however it was the violent few who caused that disaster. Yet the media labelled the antagonists as 'Liverpool supporters' and still do. The media influences and misguides, as you know.

Your club was tarnished, and carried the weight of blame for Heysal.

Monty

sorry Monty, my post appeared to be a personal dig at yourself, it wasnt intended to be that. I was trying to state how that general opinion of Hillsborough and Heysel had been allowed to perpetuate, while the facts were in of less importance.

apologies how it came across

Jason

[Monty]

No need to apologise Jason,

I understood your point.

After the trauma your club and its support have endured one can understand the insular feeling held (not by you I add).

The next stage is justice. Exoneration has occured, now full justice and prosecution. Then, hopefully, peace.

Monty

[Jason]

amen to that Monty !

[Phil Carter]

Facts around Heysel are well documented, however there is a certain event the previous year at the final in Rome when LFC fans were being stabbed as they entered the ground. Lets face facts here, english clubs were renouned throughout the 70s and 80s for their violence abroad. The English national team fans trashed the euros of 1980. Fans of Utd, Chelsea and Leeds were shockingly bad whilst abroad. The irony of Heysel in 85 is that LFC had an excellent reputation on the whole and had generally never been involved in anything major prior to Heysel. Not condoning Heysel but i think 84 in Rome had alot to do with it. The difference with Heysel compared to Hillsborough is that people went to jail and the Belgian FA were brought to task re the ground itself. Peter Robinson and John Smith had been to the ground prior to the match itself and had expressed concerns about the stadiums suitability for such a match. LFC fans who were involved went to jail and rightly so. The ban which ensued for all english fans and clubs was a cumulative ban in my opinion. What did the english fans do who were so outraged by the disgusting behaviour of LFC fans and the subsequent ban imposed to the english clubs ? well they went and caused loads of trouble at the euros in 88.

Hello Jason,

Just a few small corrections if I may?

Chelsea fans ABROAD actually have a very very good record.. and that means the 60's and 70's, when we were in Europe. (up until 1972).. we didn't play in Europe again until 1994/5.. and our fans record has been excellent.

Of course, the "headhunters" at HOME, in the UK, are another matter.

The teams causing the most problems in Europe?.. well let's start with the problem when it started shall we?

In Chelsea's case 1964/65..ROMA, away, and the Roma fans were throwing bottles onto the pitch, one which hit John Boyle and he was carried off with blood pouring from his head. The coach that took the team to and from the ground was attacked, and every window in the coach broken, with lumps of concrete as big as two bricks put together. Fans were attacked just for walking along outside the ground. Assault and robbery.

Then we have the famous Argentinian crowds at Independiente etc. Shooting match referees in Mexico, on the pitch, mass attacks of crowd against crowds....

When did it start in the UK? Around 1967/68 I believe. I witnessed the Leeds supporters attacking Chelsea fans in the 1967 FA Cup semi Final.. just because Leeds lost. Man Utd and Leeds fans in the 1970 Semi Final, over THREE games, with attacks galore.
Chelsea v Arsenal n 1969, 70, 71 and famously, 1972, with the mass pitch invasion at Stamford Bridge by the Arsenal fans, all 3000 of them, trying to get to the Chelsea fans just after half time. I was there.. it frightened the life out of me.

Millwall. Nuff said.
Cardiff. Nuff Said.

Leeds fans at that time were...

1975 European Cup Final in Paris.. LEEDS supporters..again... nuff said.

It will be noted that when Liverpool played in Europe at their height, the supporters were MOST OFTEN travelling around Europe, because of their team's successes, and therefore the Liverpool supporters got the spotlight thrown upon them more often. Year after year there were problems. Roma 84 was well known as you mention.

Then we have the England supporters, a mixed and organised bunch who ruined International matches.

Chelsea played Bayern Munich in their own backyard in May. Nerve wracking as the final was... celebrations as intense as they were.. total number of arrests of Chelsea supporters before, during and after the game? Try looking it up. I think you will find that a handful were done for being drunk.. BEFORE the game, along with a handful of Germans...
Arrests for hooliganism? NONE.

But back to the point. As Monty mentioned, the game we attended was important for both teams. I remember there was no violence, either getting to the ground nor leaving, (obviously)..

Yes Monty is correct that context is needed, but also correct in confirming.. there is simply NO excuse at all for any such behaviour from any policeman whatever the background. It simply isn't being a policeman any more, is it? Or am I so damned old fashioned that I believe that the police deserve respect because of the job they do and how they serve the community, yet that very same respect has been blown away with these disgusting revelations?

As I said, keep a close eye on things.. there will be sick notes and retirements on mass.... because the same people that took part in all of this have not got, and have PROVEN not to have, the balls to face up to what they took part in.

I want to see honesty. I want to see policemen shop policemen. I want to see straight talking. I want to see NO excuses..not one. And what's more, any amount of "on behalf of" apologies, I'll damned well ignore. It means sod all to the families. PERSONAL, knock on the door initiatives from individual police4men is the way it should be done. Let them face their accusers, let them see the pain the hiding of 23 years of lies has done.

Monty knows, as both a football supporter and an ex policeman, that there is only one way around this. Justice must be done. Hands in the air, "I'm guilty and I'll tell the WHOLE truth" stuff. Because he knows as well as we all do, that a whitewash now, will tarnish the force forever.

And there are some damned fine policemen and women knocking around still that don't deserve to be tarred with the epithate "self centred liar"

There will never be peace without it.

Just as a matter of comment, the Man U fans chanting before the game, and during the game v Wigan, shows that the scum are still around. I hope to God that Sir Alex Ferguson's words hit home.

I's a bit like Anton Ferdinand carrying on and on and on without taking the hand of friendship and sportsmanship offered. Enough is enough.

Likewise the acts of the police from South Yorkshire 1989. Whoever ordered it (the Police Press Secretary?) to be fed to The Sun that diatribe of lies about the Liverpool supporters needs locking up. Enough is enough.

And no, keeping shut 23 years isn't the excuse that helps. Its a rod for their own backs.. each and every one who kept their mouth shut in favour of their reputations.

It always finds you out in the end.

I am truly and utterly disgusted by a group of people I have immense respect for, doing a damned difficult job.. especially at that time... but to blame the dead for their own deaths?... Jesus H ....


Phil

[Phil Carter]

The next stage is justice. Exoneration has occured, now full justice and prosecution. Then, hopefully, peace.

Monty

Indeed.. full justice.. IF they can get to the men responsible for each and every action Monty. IF.

I hope all 96 families ask for a new inquest, and get it, into the individual deaths. I really do.

Phil

[Robert]

I just did a quick, unscientific lookup in the Times for "football hooliganism." The first couple of references were from the late 50s and concerned Celtic-Rangers matches. In 1963 there was an item which showed that it had infected the English game, and by the late 60s onwards the references are coming thick and fast.