Hillsborough

[Robert]

I just did a quick, unscientific lookup in the Times for "football hooliganism." The first couple of references were from the late 50s and concerned Celtic-Rangers matches. In 1963 there was an item which showed that it had infected the English game, and by the late 60s onwards the references are coming thick and fast.

[Phil Carter]

The next stage is justice. Exoneration has occured, now full justice and prosecution. Then, hopefully, peace.

Monty

Indeed.. full justice.. IF they can get to the men responsible for each and every action Monty. IF.

I hope all 96 families ask for a new inquest, and get it, into the individual deaths. I really do.

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Facts around Heysel are well documented, however there is a certain event the previous year at the final in Rome when LFC fans were being stabbed as they entered the ground. Lets face facts here, english clubs were renouned throughout the 70s and 80s for their violence abroad. The English national team fans trashed the euros of 1980. Fans of Utd, Chelsea and Leeds were shockingly bad whilst abroad. The irony of Heysel in 85 is that LFC had an excellent reputation on the whole and had generally never been involved in anything major prior to Heysel. Not condoning Heysel but i think 84 in Rome had alot to do with it. The difference with Heysel compared to Hillsborough is that people went to jail and the Belgian FA were brought to task re the ground itself. Peter Robinson and John Smith had been to the ground prior to the match itself and had expressed concerns about the stadiums suitability for such a match. LFC fans who were involved went to jail and rightly so. The ban which ensued for all english fans and clubs was a cumulative ban in my opinion. What did the english fans do who were so outraged by the disgusting behaviour of LFC fans and the subsequent ban imposed to the english clubs ? well they went and caused loads of trouble at the euros in 88.

Hello Jason,

Just a few small corrections if I may?

Chelsea fans ABROAD actually have a very very good record.. and that means the 60's and 70's, when we were in Europe. (up until 1972).. we didn't play in Europe again until 1994/5.. and our fans record has been excellent.

Of course, the "headhunters" at HOME, in the UK, are another matter.

The teams causing the most problems in Europe?.. well let's start with the problem when it started shall we?

In Chelsea's case 1964/65..ROMA, away, and the Roma fans were throwing bottles onto the pitch, one which hit John Boyle and he was carried off with blood pouring from his head. The coach that took the team to and from the ground was attacked, and every window in the coach broken, with lumps of concrete as big as two bricks put together. Fans were attacked just for walking along outside the ground. Assault and robbery.

Then we have the famous Argentinian crowds at Independiente etc. Shooting match referees in Mexico, on the pitch, mass attacks of crowd against crowds....

When did it start in the UK? Around 1967/68 I believe. I witnessed the Leeds supporters attacking Chelsea fans in the 1967 FA Cup semi Final.. just because Leeds lost. Man Utd and Leeds fans in the 1970 Semi Final, over THREE games, with attacks galore.
Chelsea v Arsenal n 1969, 70, 71 and famously, 1972, with the mass pitch invasion at Stamford Bridge by the Arsenal fans, all 3000 of them, trying to get to the Chelsea fans just after half time. I was there.. it frightened the life out of me.

Millwall. Nuff said.
Cardiff. Nuff Said.

Leeds fans at that time were...

1975 European Cup Final in Paris.. LEEDS supporters..again... nuff said.

It will be noted that when Liverpool played in Europe at their height, the supporters were MOST OFTEN travelling around Europe, because of their team's successes, and therefore the Liverpool supporters got the spotlight thrown upon them more often. Year after year there were problems. Roma 84 was well known as you mention.

Then we have the England supporters, a mixed and organised bunch who ruined International matches.

Chelsea played Bayern Munich in their own backyard in May. Nerve wracking as the final was... celebrations as intense as they were.. total number of arrests of Chelsea supporters before, during and after the game? Try looking it up. I think you will find that a handful were done for being drunk.. BEFORE the game, along with a handful of Germans...
Arrests for hooliganism? NONE.

But back to the point. As Monty mentioned, the game we attended was important for both teams. I remember there was no violence, either getting to the ground nor leaving, (obviously)..

Yes Monty is correct that context is needed, but also correct in confirming.. there is simply NO excuse at all for any such behaviour from any policeman whatever the background. It simply isn't being a policeman any more, is it? Or am I so damned old fashioned that I believe that the police deserve respect because of the job they do and how they serve the community, yet that very same respect has been blown away with these disgusting revelations?

As I said, keep a close eye on things.. there will be sick notes and retirements on mass.... because the same people that took part in all of this have not got, and have PROVEN not to have, the balls to face up to what they took part in.

I want to see honesty. I want to see policemen shop policemen. I want to see straight talking. I want to see NO excuses..not one. And what's more, any amount of "on behalf of" apologies, I'll damned well ignore. It means sod all to the families. PERSONAL, knock on the door initiatives from individual police4men is the way it should be done. Let them face their accusers, let them see the pain the hiding of 23 years of lies has done.

Monty knows, as both a football supporter and an ex policeman, that there is only one way around this. Justice must be done. Hands in the air, "I'm guilty and I'll tell the WHOLE truth" stuff. Because he knows as well as we all do, that a whitewash now, will tarnish the force forever.

And there are some damned fine policemen and women knocking around still that don't deserve to be tarred with the epithate "self centred liar"

There will never be peace without it.

Just as a matter of comment, the Man U fans chanting before the game, and during the game v Wigan, shows that the scum are still around. I hope to God that Sir Alex Ferguson's words hit home.

I's a bit like Anton Ferdinand carrying on and on and on without taking the hand of friendship and sportsmanship offered. Enough is enough.

Likewise the acts of the police from South Yorkshire 1989. Whoever ordered it (the Police Press Secretary?) to be fed to The Sun that diatribe of lies about the Liverpool supporters needs locking up. Enough is enough.

And no, keeping shut 23 years isn't the excuse that helps. Its a rod for their own backs.. each and every one who kept their mouth shut in favour of their reputations.

It always finds you out in the end.

I am truly and utterly disgusted by a group of people I have immense respect for, doing a damned difficult job.. especially at that time... but to blame the dead for their own deaths?... Jesus H ....


Phil

[Jason]

amen to that Monty !

[Monty]

No need to apologise Jason,

I understood your point.

After the trauma your club and its support have endured one can understand the insular feeling held (not by you I add).

The next stage is justice. Exoneration has occured, now full justice and prosecution. Then, hopefully, peace.

Monty

[Jason]

Jason,

I was merely stating pssible reasons as to why the PC said what he said to Phil.

The Heysal disaster bought the whole issue to a head, this mainly duie to its scale and impact throughout the whole of Europe and most of the world. The stigma that the Liverpool support had during that time carried through to 89 and Hillsborough, rightly or wrongly, it was there.

Justified? Hell no. I remember watching the game on TV and recall Juve fans setting about anyone and everyone with metal poles and any other weaponary to hand. Are they seen as calpable too? No. That fact is never raised.

Liverpool fans took the blame then however it was the violent few who caused that disaster. Yet the media labelled the antagonists as 'Liverpool supporters' and still do. The media influences and misguides, as you know.

Your club was tarnished, and carried the weight of blame for Heysal.

Monty

sorry Monty, my post appeared to be a personal dig at yourself, it wasnt intended to be that. I was trying to state how that general opinion of Hillsborough and Heysel had been allowed to perpetuate, while the facts were in of less importance.

apologies how it came across

Jason

[Monty]

Jason,

I was merely stating pssible reasons as to why the PC said what he said to Phil.

The Heysal disaster bought the whole issue to a head, this mainly duie to its scale and impact throughout the whole of Europe and most of the world. The stigma that the Liverpool support had during that time carried through to 89 and Hillsborough, rightly or wrongly, it was there.

Justified? Hell no. I remember watching the game on TV and recall Juve fans setting about anyone and everyone with metal poles and any other weaponary to hand. Are they seen as calpable too? No. That fact is never raised.

Liverpool fans took the blame then however it was the violent few who caused that disaster. Yet the media labelled the antagonists as 'Liverpool supporters' and still do. The media influences and misguides, as you know.

Your club was tarnished, and carried the weight of blame for Heysal.

Monty

[RivkahChaya]

Thanks for that Phil, very much appreciated. I know there were probably many decent Police officers and constables working that day who were genuinely disgusted at what happened but i cant forgive them if they sat back all these years and just let the lie perpetuate even further.

Again, an American perspective is going to be different, because losing a job can mean losing pension and healthcare for yourself and your children, so I can understand someone on the bottom of the chain of command being afraid to speak up for fear of getting fired. Also, in some states, getting fired from any government job can bar you from applying for another one for a set period, so being fired from a job with the police department can mean you can't apply for any job in civil service, the public schools, state universities, civilian employee at a military base, water bureau, department of motor vehicles, the list goes on, for something like 5 years, and that doesn't just mean you can't be a police officer or a teacher; it means you can't even be on the janitorial staff. There are "whistle-blower" laws in the US now, but not in 1989.

i was something to do with an inquiry within SYP regarding a naked initiation ceremony a few weeks earlier.....people were moved around as a result

Please tell me people were moved around because the ones in charge of the naked initiations got fired, not because the naked initiates got promoted.

[Jason]

I was at the same game Phil attended that day, Leicester V Chelsea, and recall a tannoy message come through at the end of the game that the Liverpool V Forest semi had been called off.

We were celebrating a win but as we left Filbert Street we heard via numerous radio carriers that there had been fatalities. The mood soon changed. The result for us didn't matter.

Now I am not condoning the words the PC said to Phil, not at all. Nor justifying them. However I do feel a little context is required here.

Some years previous, Liverpool played Juventus in the 1985 European cup final at the Heysal stadium in Belguim. Just before kick off a few Liverpool fans broke into a neutral pen and headed towards the Juve fans. This was in an age when Hooliganism was at its height. The result was that the Juve fans tried to escape the fighting and headed towards the pen wall farthest away from the Liverpool hooligans (sorry but I cannot think of any other suitable word). The Juve fans were now crushed against that wall and it gave way, killing 39 supporters and injuring 600.

Now when you hear that story the words stated to Phil now has some context. As stated, they are not justified at all, they are distgusting, however one can see why Liverpool fans were labelled as such. They carried the blame for the mindless few which caused those deaths in 85.

Monty

I think that mindset applied up to about 12.30pm last wednesday Monty.......although i think after yesterdays match at old trafford there are still some who will never accept anything different other than the "its the scousers ...so effing what". Facts around Heysel are well documented, however there is a certain event the previous year at the final in Rome when LFC fans were being stabbed as they entered the ground. Lets face facts here, english clubs were renouned throughout the 70s and 80s for their violence abroad. The English national team fans trashed the euros of 1980. Fans of Utd, Chelsea and Leeds were shockingly bad whilst abroad. The irony of Heysel in 85 is that LFC had an excellent reputation on the whole and had generally never been involved in anything major prior to Heysel. Not condoning Heysel but i think 84 in Rome had alot to do with it. The difference with Heysel compared to Hillsborough is that people went to jail and the Belgian FA were brought to task re the ground itself. Peter Robinson and John Smith had been to the ground prior to the match itself and had expressed concerns about the stadiums suitability for such a match. LFC fans who were involved went to jail and rightly so. The ban which ensued for all english fans and clubs was a cumulative ban in my opinion. What did the english fans do who were so outraged by the disgusting behaviour of LFC fans and the subsequent ban imposed to the english clubs ? well they went and caused loads of trouble at the euros in 88.

[Monty]

I was at the same game Phil attended that day, Leicester V Chelsea, and recall a tannoy message come through at the end of the game that the Liverpool V Forest semi had been called off.

We were celebrating a win but as we left Filbert Street we heard via numerous radio carriers that there had been fatalities. The mood soon changed. The result for us didn't matter.

Now I am not condoning the words the PC said to Phil, not at all. Nor justifying them. However I do feel a little context is required here.

Some years previous, Liverpool played Juventus in the 1985 European cup final at the Heysal stadium in Belguim. Just before kick off a few Liverpool fans broke into a neutral pen and headed towards the Juve fans. This was in an age when Hooliganism was at its height. The result was that the Juve fans tried to escape the fighting and headed towards the pen wall farthest away from the Liverpool hooligans (sorry but I cannot think of any other suitable word). The Juve fans were now crushed against that wall and it gave way, killing 39 supporters and injuring 600.

Now when you hear that story the words stated to Phil now has some context. As stated, they are not justified at all, they are distgusting, however one can see why Liverpool fans were labelled as such. They carried the blame for the mindless few which caused those deaths in 85.

Monty

[Robert]

Apparently "You'll Never Walk Alone" is back in the charts. Bloody hell, I remember that first time round.

[Jason]

Hello Jason,

I totally agree. It's an utter disgrace.

This won't do me any favours. but well, shoot from the hip time.

15th April 1989 I was at Filbert Street, watching Leicester v Chelsea.
As the news started filtering through via the radios that people had with them, a general feeling, where I sat, was of shock and horror.
I happened, at half time, to be standing next to a policeman, and asked him what had happened etc. The reply I got stuck with me to this day. He said..

"Bloody animals from Liverpool causing trouble. They should be locked up, the lot of them. Don't deserve to be treated like human beings."

"Ive heard that people are dead.." I said.

"Good. A few less of the b*stards makes our job easier."

I walked away from that ground and swore I'd never return. I didn't.

No, we can't tar all with the same brush. One rogue policeman doesn't make the whole unit bad. Or.......?

Up in Sheffield on that day, many...many policemen and ambulance personnel decided to take an attitude which isn't just unprofessional..it's sick makingly abhorrant.

That Police chiefs and ambulance people themselves, (or gave orders to minions below and ) decided in their wisdom to blacken the name of dead people by looking up anyone with a police record and using it against them is one thing, that they apportion blame to DEAD people for their own death, is one thing, but the top of the cake is deliberately and with malice, deflecting from their own shortcomings and responsibilities and FEEDING the gutter press outrageous lies about both alive and dead persons, I find quite sick. That CHILDREN were given alcohol tests on their bodies.. is puss ridden...septic and poisonous.

These people are employed to protect, serve and help the community. There is simply NO EXCUSE for what the police and ambulance workers did that day. Good, honest poor working class people have spent thousands of pounds trying to get this hearing put together.. and all the while, a whole load of policemen (and ambulance people) have sat back and KNOWING they had deliberately lied, changed evidence, deleted whole paragraphs of evidence in order to present a squeaky clean boys in blue image..KNOWING full well that they themselves were in part or mostly or fully responsible for the loss of x amount of lives that day... stinks to high heaven. It really is the utter depths of human behaviour. Cowards.. the damned lot of them!

If I ever hear the words.. CONSPIRACIST, COVER UP EXCUSER etc again in relation to anything.. I will quote Hillsborough 1989. Bent policemen didnt just start then. It started way before the Turf Frauds in the 1870's. Power, and misuse of it has been rife in the force for a long long time.

I am told now that things are far different from what it used to be. Really?

The problem now is that because these cowards, these spineless people with no balls at all have waited 23 years keeping their mouth shut, protecting their own reputation and been found out, the police force especially have an uphill job to convince Joe Public that they CAN trust them. The "them and us" scenario has been going on long, long before this happened. It happened in the 1970's, the 1960's... it happened in the 1950's when immigration from the West Indies and Colonies started.. it happened way back when the Jewish populations started to infiltrate large cities.. it has happened when the poor, the uneducated and the downtrodden tried to raise a voice in protest. It's been happening for a very very long time. The idea that police DO uphold the law of the land is summed up way back when Sir Robert Anderson admitted that he and his mob used to break the law to get the desired result, no doubt "for the good of the country"....

Now, I have two friends who are now retired from working in the Met for many many years. They both emailed me and said "I am not surprised... if only you knew.. it goes on all the time all over the country" and "the idea in the force is to keep your nose clean, do as you are told and don't question things.. that way you'll move up the ladder..."

Yes, there are thousands of damned hard working, conciencious policemen and women, ambulance personnel etc up and down the country. Brave people.. many who do things that we, the non savvy, have no idea about, risking life and limb to serve, protect and save other human beings. They must feel totally disheartened by this revelation. Unless, they "knew" of course, and dare not speak up...

Policemen taking backhanders, corrupt policemen, individual high ranking officers that are bigots... yup.. we have heard of them all along the way. But this.. Hillsborough.. is the most blatant example of manipulative use of power I have ever heard of from the force. It's almost akin to politics... at its worst.

Jason, I have so much sympathy with you and all Liverpool supporters. From a true Chelsea supporter. What you have all been through is so bad, words are impossible to cover the feelings. The loved ones that have died, because, in at least 41 cases, of incompetance, inability to do a job properly and sheer "me myself I" syndrome, on a mass scale, is appalling. I can understand the "rot in hell" comment. I really can.

Watch carefully what happens. There will suddenly those who retire. Those who retire on health grounds. Those who are permanently laid off on health grounds. Those who say "It was so long agao, I can't remember".. and those who believe they STILL serve a greater good by keeping their traps shut...a greater good than human life, it seems.

Justice will need to be seen to be served. But I'll be very very surprised if any individual gets hammered for any of this. There are more get out clauses in the way than you can imagine.

I'd like to see some damned HONESTY. You know, that old fashioned idea that a policeman comes forward and lays it on the line, what he was told to do, what orders he was taking, from who, and when, and how.. and who took the orders with him, and what actions he took off his own bat as well. Then ANOTHER policeman do the same, and another, and another.. and the ambulance people... and at least ONE of the police chiefs suddenly bare all and admit everything to Joe Public., instead of hiding behind a cacophony of lies.

No doubt we shall hear of "how bad the families of the policemen and ambulance personel " have it now. Well... I'm sorry. Rod for their own backs. 96 families have been through hell and then some because of this disgusting scenario. Live with it, I say to those families that today have a person who was involved in that cover up. Live with it.

Police cover ups? What for? What purpose would it serve? Nah... could never happen... is what Ive been told since time immormorial about the WM situation.

Well now. I don't know if the police DID cover anything up in 1888 and beyond.. but I DO know this. I won't rule it out. Policemen and politicians covering their own backsides, bending the law, breaking the law and watching others suffer because of it, apportioning blame, is all part of our history.

Now who was it again that pointed the blame at the Jews in Whitechapel? A Jew even? Who wrote badly of them in his book? Oh yes.. thats right, the Assistant Commissioner of police himself, Sir Robert Anderson.
Apportioning blame.....

Sound familiar?

Cover ups happen.. and Hillsborough 1989 is a prime example. If you can't trust a policeman, who can you trust?

That trust is very firmly in the balance. Dont be surprised if South Yorkshire Police are trusted by Joe Public. SDon't be surprised if Joe Public calls them scum. Don't be surprised if Liverpool supporters, Everton supporters and ALL true football supporters don't truat a word they tell them.

They've made a rod for their own backs. I just hope justice CAN be done.

My two mates, mentioned above, are ashamed of their so called colleagues.
I wish I could say "don't be, you had no part in it"... but I can't. Policemen and women up and down the country should take a good long look at their institution and rid their packs of self serving individuals, whoever they are, at whatever rank... and wish them Bon Voyage. Joe Public MIGHT, just MIGHT, start to believe in a decent, HONEST police force again.

Jason, I totally agree with you. And whether some like this or not, and make all sorts of excuses about "those were the times then..etc" there IS NO excuse for what has happened. At any time. It's sick makingly disgusting.

In respect for the 96 and their families


Phil

Thanks for that Phil, very much appreciated. I know there were probably many decent Police officers and constables working that day who were genuinely disgusted at what happened but i cant forgive them if they sat back all these years and just let the lie perpetuate even further. Should that be proven to be the case then silence is as much of a crime as speaking in my opinion, probably even more so. I truly hope that individuals are prosecuted and exposed for their part in this, but as you say, i wont hold my breath.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Jason,

I totally agree. It's an utter disgrace.

This won't do me any favours. but well, shoot from the hip time.

15th April 1989 I was at Filbert Street, watching Leicester v Chelsea.
As the news started filtering through via the radios that people had with them, a general feeling, where I sat, was of shock and horror.
I happened, at half time, to be standing next to a policeman, and asked him what had happened etc. The reply I got stuck with me to this day. He said..

"Bloody animals from Liverpool causing trouble. They should be locked up, the lot of them. Don't deserve to be treated like human beings."

"Ive heard that people are dead.." I said.

"Good. A few less of the b*stards makes our job easier."

I walked away from that ground and swore I'd never return. I didn't.

No, we can't tar all with the same brush. One rogue policeman doesn't make the whole unit bad. Or.......?

Up in Sheffield on that day, many...many policemen and ambulance personnel decided to take an attitude which isn't just unprofessional..it's sick makingly abhorrant.

That Police chiefs and ambulance people themselves, (or gave orders to minions below and ) decided in their wisdom to blacken the name of dead people by looking up anyone with a police record and using it against them is one thing, that they apportion blame to DEAD people for their own death, is one thing, but the top of the cake is deliberately and with malice, deflecting from their own shortcomings and responsibilities and FEEDING the gutter press outrageous lies about both alive and dead persons, I find quite sick. That CHILDREN were given alcohol tests on their bodies.. is puss ridden...septic and poisonous.

These people are employed to protect, serve and help the community. There is simply NO EXCUSE for what the police and ambulance workers did that day. Good, honest poor working class people have spent thousands of pounds trying to get this hearing put together.. and all the while, a whole load of policemen (and ambulance people) have sat back and KNOWING they had deliberately lied, changed evidence, deleted whole paragraphs of evidence in order to present a squeaky clean boys in blue image..KNOWING full well that they themselves were in part or mostly or fully responsible for the loss of x amount of lives that day... stinks to high heaven. It really is the utter depths of human behaviour. Cowards.. the damned lot of them!

If I ever hear the words.. CONSPIRACIST, COVER UP EXCUSER etc again in relation to anything.. I will quote Hillsborough 1989. Bent policemen didnt just start then. It started way before the Turf Frauds in the 1870's. Power, and misuse of it has been rife in the force for a long long time.

I am told now that things are far different from what it used to be. Really?

The problem now is that because these cowards, these spineless people with no balls at all have waited 23 years keeping their mouth shut, protecting their own reputation and been found out, the police force especially have an uphill job to convince Joe Public that they CAN trust them. The "them and us" scenario has been going on long, long before this happened. It happened in the 1970's, the 1960's... it happened in the 1950's when immigration from the West Indies and Colonies started.. it happened way back when the Jewish populations started to infiltrate large cities.. it has happened when the poor, the uneducated and the downtrodden tried to raise a voice in protest. It's been happening for a very very long time. The idea that police DO uphold the law of the land is summed up way back when Sir Robert Anderson admitted that he and his mob used to break the law to get the desired result, no doubt "for the good of the country"....

Now, I have two friends who are now retired from working in the Met for many many years. They both emailed me and said "I am not surprised... if only you knew.. it goes on all the time all over the country" and "the idea in the force is to keep your nose clean, do as you are told and don't question things.. that way you'll move up the ladder..."

Yes, there are thousands of damned hard working, conciencious policemen and women, ambulance personnel etc up and down the country. Brave people.. many who do things that we, the non savvy, have no idea about, risking life and limb to serve, protect and save other human beings. They must feel totally disheartened by this revelation. Unless, they "knew" of course, and dare not speak up...

Policemen taking backhanders, corrupt policemen, individual high ranking officers that are bigots... yup.. we have heard of them all along the way. But this.. Hillsborough.. is the most blatant example of manipulative use of power I have ever heard of from the force. It's almost akin to politics... at its worst.

Jason, I have so much sympathy with you and all Liverpool supporters. From a true Chelsea supporter. What you have all been through is so bad, words are impossible to cover the feelings. The loved ones that have died, because, in at least 41 cases, of incompetance, inability to do a job properly and sheer "me myself I" syndrome, on a mass scale, is appalling. I can understand the "rot in hell" comment. I really can.

Watch carefully what happens. There will suddenly those who retire. Those who retire on health grounds. Those who are permanently laid off on health grounds. Those who say "It was so long agao, I can't remember".. and those who believe they STILL serve a greater good by keeping their traps shut...a greater good than human life, it seems.

Justice will need to be seen to be served. But I'll be very very surprised if any individual gets hammered for any of this. There are more get out clauses in the way than you can imagine.

I'd like to see some damned HONESTY. You know, that old fashioned idea that a policeman comes forward and lays it on the line, what he was told to do, what orders he was taking, from who, and when, and how.. and who took the orders with him, and what actions he took off his own bat as well. Then ANOTHER policeman do the same, and another, and another.. and the ambulance people... and at least ONE of the police chiefs suddenly bare all and admit everything to Joe Public., instead of hiding behind a cacophony of lies.

No doubt we shall hear of "how bad the families of the policemen and ambulance personel " have it now. Well... I'm sorry. Rod for their own backs. 96 families have been through hell and then some because of this disgusting scenario. Live with it, I say to those families that today have a person who was involved in that cover up. Live with it.

Police cover ups? What for? What purpose would it serve? Nah... could never happen... is what Ive been told since time immormorial about the WM situation.

Well now. I don't know if the police DID cover anything up in 1888 and beyond.. but I DO know this. I won't rule it out. Policemen and politicians covering their own backsides, bending the law, breaking the law and watching others suffer because of it, apportioning blame, is all part of our history.

Now who was it again that pointed the blame at the Jews in Whitechapel? A Jew even? Who wrote badly of them in his book? Oh yes.. thats right, the Assistant Commissioner of police himself, Sir Robert Anderson.
Apportioning blame.....

Sound familiar?

Cover ups happen.. and Hillsborough 1989 is a prime example. If you can't trust a policeman, who can you trust?

That trust is very firmly in the balance. Dont be surprised if South Yorkshire Police are trusted by Joe Public. SDon't be surprised if Joe Public calls them scum. Don't be surprised if Liverpool supporters, Everton supporters and ALL true football supporters don't truat a word they tell them.

They've made a rod for their own backs. I just hope justice CAN be done.

My two mates, mentioned above, are ashamed of their so called colleagues.
I wish I could say "don't be, you had no part in it"... but I can't. Policemen and women up and down the country should take a good long look at their institution and rid their packs of self serving individuals, whoever they are, at whatever rank... and wish them Bon Voyage. Joe Public MIGHT, just MIGHT, start to believe in a decent, HONEST police force again.

Jason, I totally agree with you. And whether some like this or not, and make all sorts of excuses about "those were the times then..etc" there IS NO excuse for what has happened. At any time. It's sick makingly disgusting.

In respect for the 96 and their families


Phil

[RonIpstone]

i was something to do with an inquiry within SYP regarding a naked initiation ceremony a few weeks earlier.....people were moved around as a result

Thanks. That rings a bell.

[Jason]

I have read somewhere the alleged reason why the experienced match commander was relieved of his duties at Hillsborough.

The Panel's report says as follows:-

"2.2.8 Yet there was one significant difference regarding policing. Chief Superintendent Brian Mole, Hillsborough's most senior and experienced match commander, was transferred from the local police division in highly controversial circumstances.[1]*He was replaced by Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield 21 days before the Semi-Final. No further information on this sequence of events has been made available to the Panel but, as this chapter shows, it was a significant development. Based on the documents disclosed to the Panel, what follows considers the immediate context, circumstances and aftermath of the disaster."

The footnote [1] is [1]*Phil Scraton,*Hillsborough: The Truth, Edinburgh: Mainstream (2009) pp18-20.


You can read the Panel's report http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/report/

i was something to do with an inquiry within SYP regarding a naked initiation ceremony a few weeks earlier.....people were moved around as a result