Hillsborough

[Jason]

the whole episode of Hillsborough has stunk from day one, we who were there knew it, the police knew it and the government of the day and since have known it.

The absolute disgrace is that they allowed the smear on the people within that stadium to be allowed to cast its shadow over 23 years. I know a lad who died, he was in my local supporters club and i know many who still have guilt that they couldnt do enough to help those injured and dying.

Yesterdays revelations have shown that they werent at fault, the authorities were and the smear which followed in the press began within moments of the disaster occurring. I am a proud Liverpudlian, i have been to many football matches both before Hillsborough and since and the feeling of aggrievement by the club, fans and victims famillies has grown year on year as each door was slammed in the face of truth and justice we craved. Finally now people outside of the city can see that all along we were right. Its a great moment and one we will savour. Those individuals responsible are now running scared because they know that the wheels of justice are heading in their direction......personally hope they all rot in hell.

[Jason]

an extra little snippet of information, all the times the famillies attempted to get some justice through private prosecutions, they paid with their own money......the authorities used public money to defend themselves......with yesterdays revelations and judgements, this seems rather sickening to me

[RivkahChaya]

Again, I'm an American, so I'm sure it works differently here, and since you have national healthcare, and probably a much better way of dealing with being injured at work, maybe public employers don't carry malpractice insurance, but here, most public employees get a defense from their employers for malpractice that isn't actually malicious*, because there is specific funding for it, paid for by insurance that is a little like malpractice insurance for doctors. The employer pays the premiums, and a specific amount isn't necessarily passed on to the employee, but the fees are still built in to the fees people pay for healthcare and disability insurance they have through their employers.

Now, maybe there was some actual malice on the part of the police department. I wouldn't know.

*Real examples:

Person dies in custody because he apparently misunderstood the caution to remain silent as meaning that if he informed the police he needed to get medication he wasn't carrying with him, he would lose his right not to answer other questions, and died. Not malice on the part of the police.

Person who is black dies in custody after being beaten by racist white cops. Malice.

[RonIpstone]

I wrote the following on the 21st anniversary of the disaster.

The disaster occurred at the semi-final tie of the 1989 FA Cup played between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest. The ticket arrangements for this match were pretty much the same as they had been for the previous year's semi-final between the same two clubs at the same ground. Liverpool had been given the west and north, and Forest was allocated the south and east, ends of the ground. Liverpool was the bigger club with the greater following of fans, yet it would receive fewer tickets than Forest. There would be a total of 29,800 Forest fans accommodated in the Spion Kop (east end) and in the south stand, and a total of 24,256 Liverpool fans in the north stand and in the Leppings Lane (west end).



One problem was that the Forest fans had access through 60 turnstiles spread evenly along the south side and east end of the ground, whereas the Liverpool fans had only 23 turnstiles, all of which were situated at the Leppings Lane end. Each Forest turnstile had to admit less than 500 fans, whereas each Liverpool turnstile on average would have to admit more than 1050 fans. Moreover the Liverpool turnstiles were clustered together and it was not easy to distinguish which turnstile had to be used. There were separate turnstiles for the all seater north stand, for the seats in the upper Leppings Lane and for the terracing at the lower level of the Leppings Lane. There were 10,100 standing places on the west terrace, and these fans were served by only 7 turnstiles, an average of 1,450 standing Liverpool fans had to get through each turnstile. This led to confusion and congestion, which culminated in a dangerous situation arising in the half hour before kick-off at 3.00 p.m. There was no orderly queuing and a scrum of fans, all trying to get into the ground, had developed.



The Police stationed outside the ground realised that they were losing control. A request was made that the kick-off be postponed, but the Police inside the ground refused that request. In charge of the overall operation of the Police was Chief Supt. Duckenfield who had only been recently raised to this rank and for whom this was to be his first, and would prove to be his last, big match in charge. With fifteen minutes to kick off the crush outside the ground was becoming intolerable, and at 2.47 p.m. Supt. Marshall radioed his commander inside the ground asking that an exit gate be opened to ease the pressure. The request was repeated three times with the emphasise being that if the exit gates were not opened there was a strong possibility of fatalities outside the ground.



At 2.52 p.m. Chief Supt. Duckenfield gave the order to open exit gate 'C' to ease the pressure of the crowd outside the ground, through this exit gate about 2,000 fans, undoubtedly some without tickets, passed at a fast walk. Immediately in front of this exit gate was the tunnel which led to pens 3 and 4, the central pens immediately behind the goal, above this tunnel was a large sign bearing the legend 'Standing', there was no other indication that the standing terraces could be reached in any other way than through the tunnel. Not surprisingly most of the fans admitted through the exit gate went straight through the tunnel. Pens 3 and 4 were full to bursting before the gate was opened, the addition of another 2,000 or so people would make a fatal crush inevitable.



The match kicked off on time and after 4 minutes Beardsley hit the bar at the far end (east end), this resulted in a sway forward from the back of the Liverpool terracing to the front. It was probably at this moment that the crush barriers which failed gave way.* Many of the fans at the back of the terracing were unaware of the agonies being endured by those at the front. Eventually at 3.06 p.m. the game was stopped by the referee at the request of a police officer who had run onto the pitch. The rescue effort could then begin, yet the rescue was hampered because the fans were penned in by the 8 foot high perimeter fencing which had been erected as an anti-hooligan measure to prevent pitch invasions.



So what had happened? And what had gone wrong? These were the questions uppermost in the mind of Graham Kelly, Chief Executive of the FA, and to obtain answers he made his way to the Police control room to inquire of the match commander Chief Supt. Duckenfield as why this showpiece semi-final had been stopped. Duckenfield said that the game would have to be abandoned as there had been fatalities and that the cause was the forcing of exit gate 'C' by Liverpool fans.



This of course was wrong; the exit gate had been opened on the instruction of Duckenfield himself because he feared that there would be fatalities outside the ground if it had not been opened. But it really did not matter who had opened the gate and why, no blame could attach to Chief Supt Duckenfield if he had given the go ahead to open an exit gate to avoid death on the outside of the ground. His failure was a failure to monitor the build up of the crowd in pens 3 and 4, and a failure to close the access to these pens when they had become full. They had become uncomfortably (probably dangerously) full well before 2.47 p.m. when the request for the exit gate to be opened was made.* Duckenfield should have closed off the tunnel to prevent further access to pens 3 and 4, all he needed to do was to send a serial of Bobbies to block the tunnel and direct the incoming fans to the relatively empty pens at the sides of the terrace. That he did not do that should haunt him for the rest of his days.



Eventually, in 2000 Duckenfield and his deputy, Supt. Murray were prosecuted for manslaughter and dereliction of public duty in a private prosecution brought by the victims' families. Murray was acquitted and the jury could not reach a verdict on Duckenfield. The trial judge directed that no further proceedings could be brought against him.



There was a posting on the message board of some doggerel which described the disaster as "South Yorkshire Mass Murder". Not so, it was an accident caused by the negligent action of the inexperienced match commander who was following procedures which he believed had seen the previous year's semi-final pass off without a hitch. The opening of the exit gate was done with the best of intentions, but through carelessness or inexperience or a combination of the two, he failed to order the blocking off of the tunnel and the pens to which it led. Whether the exit gate was to be opened or not, the central pens 3 and 4 should have been blocked off, this had happened in 1988 in the previous year's semi-final, but was forgotten about in 1989.



The Police, Sheffield Wednesday FC, the F.A. and Sheffield City Council all got a share of the criticism (but mainly the South Yorks Police was blamed) by Lord Justice Taylor in his report. The hooligan element in English football supporters which had made perimeter and radial fences a necessity escaped criticism. As did the hooligan element of some Liverpool supporters, whose presence at matches might have made the Police more concerned about preventing hooliganism than looking after the safety of the majority of Liverpool fans.



Finally, it is usually said that there is a fight for justice for the 96, or this or that is in memory of the 96, and indeed there have been 96 deaths as a result of Hillsborough, the last of whom died in 1993. But one should also remember Andrew Devine who went into a coma on 15 April 1989 as a result of his brain being starved of oxygen in the crush. He is still alive, now aged 43 years, his condition is now that he is confined to a wheelchair, cannot speak, but can eat pureed food and can communicate using special sensory equipment. His story and that of his parents who have cared for him for the past 21 years is a tribute to the human spirit.

[RivkahChaya]

Thanks!

Will you tolerate a couple more questions?

First, was there a pressing reason to replace the super in charge of an important event like this right before the event, such as the death of the predecessor?

Second, when a jury can't come to a conclusion (we call them "hung" here), does the judge have the power to dismiss the case with prejudice, or whatever your term is? Over here, a hung jury is a type of mistrial, and any time there is a mistrial, the judge will dismiss either with, or without prejudice, meaning that charge cannot, or can be refiled, for a new trial.

I'm just wondering if, having been previously tried, they can be retired because this report would be considered new evidence, or whether the first trial was the only one allowed.

Also, thanks for the part about the reason for the high fences. It explains that it wasn't so much the behavior of those particular fans, but past behavior of fans in general, and the way the stadium was built because of it, that contributed.

[Jason]

Thanks!

Will you tolerate a couple more questions?

First, was there a pressing reason to replace the super in charge of an important event like this right before the event, such as the death of the predecessor?

Second, when a jury can't come to a conclusion (we call them "hung" here), does the judge have the power to dismiss the case with prejudice, or whatever your term is? Over here, a hung jury is a type of mistrial, and any time there is a mistrial, the judge will dismiss either with, or without prejudice, meaning that charge cannot, or can be refiled, for a new trial.

I'm just wondering if, having been previously tried, they can be retired because this report would be considered new evidence, or whether the first trial was the only one allowed.

Also, thanks for the part about the reason for the high fences. It explains that it wasn't so much the behavior of those particular fans, but past behavior of fans in general, and the way the stadium was built because of it, that contributed.

have a look on the internet under hillsborough, there is some amazing personal accounts which will have you weep buckets. the Taylor report and yesterdays report are as good a place to start

[RonIpstone]

Thanks!

Will you tolerate a couple more questions?

First, was there a pressing reason to replace the super in charge of an important event like this right before the event, such as the death of the predecessor?

I have read somewhere the alleged reason why the experienced match commander was relieved of his duties at Hillsborough.

The Panel's report says as follows:-

"2.2.8 Yet there was one significant difference regarding policing. Chief Superintendent Brian Mole, Hillsborough's most senior and experienced match commander, was transferred from the local police division in highly controversial circumstances.[1]*He was replaced by Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield 21 days before the Semi-Final. No further information on this sequence of events has been made available to the Panel but, as this chapter shows, it was a significant development. Based on the documents disclosed to the Panel, what follows considers the immediate context, circumstances and aftermath of the disaster."

The footnote [1] is [1]*Phil Scraton,*Hillsborough: The Truth, Edinburgh: Mainstream (2009) pp18-20.


You can read the Panel's report http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/report/

[Jason]

I have read somewhere the alleged reason why the experienced match commander was relieved of his duties at Hillsborough.

The Panel's report says as follows:-

"2.2.8 Yet there was one significant difference regarding policing. Chief Superintendent Brian Mole, Hillsborough's most senior and experienced match commander, was transferred from the local police division in highly controversial circumstances.[1]*He was replaced by Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield 21 days before the Semi-Final. No further information on this sequence of events has been made available to the Panel but, as this chapter shows, it was a significant development. Based on the documents disclosed to the Panel, what follows considers the immediate context, circumstances and aftermath of the disaster."

The footnote [1] is [1]*Phil Scraton,*Hillsborough: The Truth, Edinburgh: Mainstream (2009) pp18-20.


You can read the Panel's report http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/report/

i was something to do with an inquiry within SYP regarding a naked initiation ceremony a few weeks earlier.....people were moved around as a result

[RonIpstone]

i was something to do with an inquiry within SYP regarding a naked initiation ceremony a few weeks earlier.....people were moved around as a result

Thanks. That rings a bell.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Jason,

I totally agree. It's an utter disgrace.

This won't do me any favours. but well, shoot from the hip time.

15th April 1989 I was at Filbert Street, watching Leicester v Chelsea.
As the news started filtering through via the radios that people had with them, a general feeling, where I sat, was of shock and horror.
I happened, at half time, to be standing next to a policeman, and asked him what had happened etc. The reply I got stuck with me to this day. He said..

"Bloody animals from Liverpool causing trouble. They should be locked up, the lot of them. Don't deserve to be treated like human beings."

"Ive heard that people are dead.." I said.

"Good. A few less of the b*stards makes our job easier."

I walked away from that ground and swore I'd never return. I didn't.

No, we can't tar all with the same brush. One rogue policeman doesn't make the whole unit bad. Or.......?

Up in Sheffield on that day, many...many policemen and ambulance personnel decided to take an attitude which isn't just unprofessional..it's sick makingly abhorrant.

That Police chiefs and ambulance people themselves, (or gave orders to minions below and ) decided in their wisdom to blacken the name of dead people by looking up anyone with a police record and using it against them is one thing, that they apportion blame to DEAD people for their own death, is one thing, but the top of the cake is deliberately and with malice, deflecting from their own shortcomings and responsibilities and FEEDING the gutter press outrageous lies about both alive and dead persons, I find quite sick. That CHILDREN were given alcohol tests on their bodies.. is puss ridden...septic and poisonous.

These people are employed to protect, serve and help the community. There is simply NO EXCUSE for what the police and ambulance workers did that day. Good, honest poor working class people have spent thousands of pounds trying to get this hearing put together.. and all the while, a whole load of policemen (and ambulance people) have sat back and KNOWING they had deliberately lied, changed evidence, deleted whole paragraphs of evidence in order to present a squeaky clean boys in blue image..KNOWING full well that they themselves were in part or mostly or fully responsible for the loss of x amount of lives that day... stinks to high heaven. It really is the utter depths of human behaviour. Cowards.. the damned lot of them!

If I ever hear the words.. CONSPIRACIST, COVER UP EXCUSER etc again in relation to anything.. I will quote Hillsborough 1989. Bent policemen didnt just start then. It started way before the Turf Frauds in the 1870's. Power, and misuse of it has been rife in the force for a long long time.

I am told now that things are far different from what it used to be. Really?

The problem now is that because these cowards, these spineless people with no balls at all have waited 23 years keeping their mouth shut, protecting their own reputation and been found out, the police force especially have an uphill job to convince Joe Public that they CAN trust them. The "them and us" scenario has been going on long, long before this happened. It happened in the 1970's, the 1960's... it happened in the 1950's when immigration from the West Indies and Colonies started.. it happened way back when the Jewish populations started to infiltrate large cities.. it has happened when the poor, the uneducated and the downtrodden tried to raise a voice in protest. It's been happening for a very very long time. The idea that police DO uphold the law of the land is summed up way back when Sir Robert Anderson admitted that he and his mob used to break the law to get the desired result, no doubt "for the good of the country"....

Now, I have two friends who are now retired from working in the Met for many many years. They both emailed me and said "I am not surprised... if only you knew.. it goes on all the time all over the country" and "the idea in the force is to keep your nose clean, do as you are told and don't question things.. that way you'll move up the ladder..."

Yes, there are thousands of damned hard working, conciencious policemen and women, ambulance personnel etc up and down the country. Brave people.. many who do things that we, the non savvy, have no idea about, risking life and limb to serve, protect and save other human beings. They must feel totally disheartened by this revelation. Unless, they "knew" of course, and dare not speak up...

Policemen taking backhanders, corrupt policemen, individual high ranking officers that are bigots... yup.. we have heard of them all along the way. But this.. Hillsborough.. is the most blatant example of manipulative use of power I have ever heard of from the force. It's almost akin to politics... at its worst.

Jason, I have so much sympathy with you and all Liverpool supporters. From a true Chelsea supporter. What you have all been through is so bad, words are impossible to cover the feelings. The loved ones that have died, because, in at least 41 cases, of incompetance, inability to do a job properly and sheer "me myself I" syndrome, on a mass scale, is appalling. I can understand the "rot in hell" comment. I really can.

Watch carefully what happens. There will suddenly those who retire. Those who retire on health grounds. Those who are permanently laid off on health grounds. Those who say "It was so long agao, I can't remember".. and those who believe they STILL serve a greater good by keeping their traps shut...a greater good than human life, it seems.

Justice will need to be seen to be served. But I'll be very very surprised if any individual gets hammered for any of this. There are more get out clauses in the way than you can imagine.

I'd like to see some damned HONESTY. You know, that old fashioned idea that a policeman comes forward and lays it on the line, what he was told to do, what orders he was taking, from who, and when, and how.. and who took the orders with him, and what actions he took off his own bat as well. Then ANOTHER policeman do the same, and another, and another.. and the ambulance people... and at least ONE of the police chiefs suddenly bare all and admit everything to Joe Public., instead of hiding behind a cacophony of lies.

No doubt we shall hear of "how bad the families of the policemen and ambulance personel " have it now. Well... I'm sorry. Rod for their own backs. 96 families have been through hell and then some because of this disgusting scenario. Live with it, I say to those families that today have a person who was involved in that cover up. Live with it.

Police cover ups? What for? What purpose would it serve? Nah... could never happen... is what Ive been told since time immormorial about the WM situation.

Well now. I don't know if the police DID cover anything up in 1888 and beyond.. but I DO know this. I won't rule it out. Policemen and politicians covering their own backsides, bending the law, breaking the law and watching others suffer because of it, apportioning blame, is all part of our history.

Now who was it again that pointed the blame at the Jews in Whitechapel? A Jew even? Who wrote badly of them in his book? Oh yes.. thats right, the Assistant Commissioner of police himself, Sir Robert Anderson.
Apportioning blame.....

Sound familiar?

Cover ups happen.. and Hillsborough 1989 is a prime example. If you can't trust a policeman, who can you trust?

That trust is very firmly in the balance. Dont be surprised if South Yorkshire Police are trusted by Joe Public. SDon't be surprised if Joe Public calls them scum. Don't be surprised if Liverpool supporters, Everton supporters and ALL true football supporters don't truat a word they tell them.

They've made a rod for their own backs. I just hope justice CAN be done.

My two mates, mentioned above, are ashamed of their so called colleagues.
I wish I could say "don't be, you had no part in it"... but I can't. Policemen and women up and down the country should take a good long look at their institution and rid their packs of self serving individuals, whoever they are, at whatever rank... and wish them Bon Voyage. Joe Public MIGHT, just MIGHT, start to believe in a decent, HONEST police force again.

Jason, I totally agree with you. And whether some like this or not, and make all sorts of excuses about "those were the times then..etc" there IS NO excuse for what has happened. At any time. It's sick makingly disgusting.

In respect for the 96 and their families


Phil

[Jason]

Hello Jason,

I totally agree. It's an utter disgrace.

This won't do me any favours. but well, shoot from the hip time.

15th April 1989 I was at Filbert Street, watching Leicester v Chelsea.
As the news started filtering through via the radios that people had with them, a general feeling, where I sat, was of shock and horror.
I happened, at half time, to be standing next to a policeman, and asked him what had happened etc. The reply I got stuck with me to this day. He said..

"Bloody animals from Liverpool causing trouble. They should be locked up, the lot of them. Don't deserve to be treated like human beings."

"Ive heard that people are dead.." I said.

"Good. A few less of the b*stards makes our job easier."

I walked away from that ground and swore I'd never return. I didn't.

No, we can't tar all with the same brush. One rogue policeman doesn't make the whole unit bad. Or.......?

Up in Sheffield on that day, many...many policemen and ambulance personnel decided to take an attitude which isn't just unprofessional..it's sick makingly abhorrant.

That Police chiefs and ambulance people themselves, (or gave orders to minions below and ) decided in their wisdom to blacken the name of dead people by looking up anyone with a police record and using it against them is one thing, that they apportion blame to DEAD people for their own death, is one thing, but the top of the cake is deliberately and with malice, deflecting from their own shortcomings and responsibilities and FEEDING the gutter press outrageous lies about both alive and dead persons, I find quite sick. That CHILDREN were given alcohol tests on their bodies.. is puss ridden...septic and poisonous.

These people are employed to protect, serve and help the community. There is simply NO EXCUSE for what the police and ambulance workers did that day. Good, honest poor working class people have spent thousands of pounds trying to get this hearing put together.. and all the while, a whole load of policemen (and ambulance people) have sat back and KNOWING they had deliberately lied, changed evidence, deleted whole paragraphs of evidence in order to present a squeaky clean boys in blue image..KNOWING full well that they themselves were in part or mostly or fully responsible for the loss of x amount of lives that day... stinks to high heaven. It really is the utter depths of human behaviour. Cowards.. the damned lot of them!

If I ever hear the words.. CONSPIRACIST, COVER UP EXCUSER etc again in relation to anything.. I will quote Hillsborough 1989. Bent policemen didnt just start then. It started way before the Turf Frauds in the 1870's. Power, and misuse of it has been rife in the force for a long long time.

I am told now that things are far different from what it used to be. Really?

The problem now is that because these cowards, these spineless people with no balls at all have waited 23 years keeping their mouth shut, protecting their own reputation and been found out, the police force especially have an uphill job to convince Joe Public that they CAN trust them. The "them and us" scenario has been going on long, long before this happened. It happened in the 1970's, the 1960's... it happened in the 1950's when immigration from the West Indies and Colonies started.. it happened way back when the Jewish populations started to infiltrate large cities.. it has happened when the poor, the uneducated and the downtrodden tried to raise a voice in protest. It's been happening for a very very long time. The idea that police DO uphold the law of the land is summed up way back when Sir Robert Anderson admitted that he and his mob used to break the law to get the desired result, no doubt "for the good of the country"....

Now, I have two friends who are now retired from working in the Met for many many years. They both emailed me and said "I am not surprised... if only you knew.. it goes on all the time all over the country" and "the idea in the force is to keep your nose clean, do as you are told and don't question things.. that way you'll move up the ladder..."

Yes, there are thousands of damned hard working, conciencious policemen and women, ambulance personnel etc up and down the country. Brave people.. many who do things that we, the non savvy, have no idea about, risking life and limb to serve, protect and save other human beings. They must feel totally disheartened by this revelation. Unless, they "knew" of course, and dare not speak up...

Policemen taking backhanders, corrupt policemen, individual high ranking officers that are bigots... yup.. we have heard of them all along the way. But this.. Hillsborough.. is the most blatant example of manipulative use of power I have ever heard of from the force. It's almost akin to politics... at its worst.

Jason, I have so much sympathy with you and all Liverpool supporters. From a true Chelsea supporter. What you have all been through is so bad, words are impossible to cover the feelings. The loved ones that have died, because, in at least 41 cases, of incompetance, inability to do a job properly and sheer "me myself I" syndrome, on a mass scale, is appalling. I can understand the "rot in hell" comment. I really can.

Watch carefully what happens. There will suddenly those who retire. Those who retire on health grounds. Those who are permanently laid off on health grounds. Those who say "It was so long agao, I can't remember".. and those who believe they STILL serve a greater good by keeping their traps shut...a greater good than human life, it seems.

Justice will need to be seen to be served. But I'll be very very surprised if any individual gets hammered for any of this. There are more get out clauses in the way than you can imagine.

I'd like to see some damned HONESTY. You know, that old fashioned idea that a policeman comes forward and lays it on the line, what he was told to do, what orders he was taking, from who, and when, and how.. and who took the orders with him, and what actions he took off his own bat as well. Then ANOTHER policeman do the same, and another, and another.. and the ambulance people... and at least ONE of the police chiefs suddenly bare all and admit everything to Joe Public., instead of hiding behind a cacophony of lies.

No doubt we shall hear of "how bad the families of the policemen and ambulance personel " have it now. Well... I'm sorry. Rod for their own backs. 96 families have been through hell and then some because of this disgusting scenario. Live with it, I say to those families that today have a person who was involved in that cover up. Live with it.

Police cover ups? What for? What purpose would it serve? Nah... could never happen... is what Ive been told since time immormorial about the WM situation.

Well now. I don't know if the police DID cover anything up in 1888 and beyond.. but I DO know this. I won't rule it out. Policemen and politicians covering their own backsides, bending the law, breaking the law and watching others suffer because of it, apportioning blame, is all part of our history.

Now who was it again that pointed the blame at the Jews in Whitechapel? A Jew even? Who wrote badly of them in his book? Oh yes.. thats right, the Assistant Commissioner of police himself, Sir Robert Anderson.
Apportioning blame.....

Sound familiar?

Cover ups happen.. and Hillsborough 1989 is a prime example. If you can't trust a policeman, who can you trust?

That trust is very firmly in the balance. Dont be surprised if South Yorkshire Police are trusted by Joe Public. SDon't be surprised if Joe Public calls them scum. Don't be surprised if Liverpool supporters, Everton supporters and ALL true football supporters don't truat a word they tell them.

They've made a rod for their own backs. I just hope justice CAN be done.

My two mates, mentioned above, are ashamed of their so called colleagues.
I wish I could say "don't be, you had no part in it"... but I can't. Policemen and women up and down the country should take a good long look at their institution and rid their packs of self serving individuals, whoever they are, at whatever rank... and wish them Bon Voyage. Joe Public MIGHT, just MIGHT, start to believe in a decent, HONEST police force again.

Jason, I totally agree with you. And whether some like this or not, and make all sorts of excuses about "those were the times then..etc" there IS NO excuse for what has happened. At any time. It's sick makingly disgusting.

In respect for the 96 and their families


Phil

Thanks for that Phil, very much appreciated. I know there were probably many decent Police officers and constables working that day who were genuinely disgusted at what happened but i cant forgive them if they sat back all these years and just let the lie perpetuate even further. Should that be proven to be the case then silence is as much of a crime as speaking in my opinion, probably even more so. I truly hope that individuals are prosecuted and exposed for their part in this, but as you say, i wont hold my breath.

[Robert]

Apparently "You'll Never Walk Alone" is back in the charts. Bloody hell, I remember that first time round.

[Monty]

I was at the same game Phil attended that day, Leicester V Chelsea, and recall a tannoy message come through at the end of the game that the Liverpool V Forest semi had been called off.

We were celebrating a win but as we left Filbert Street we heard via numerous radio carriers that there had been fatalities. The mood soon changed. The result for us didn't matter.

Now I am not condoning the words the PC said to Phil, not at all. Nor justifying them. However I do feel a little context is required here.

Some years previous, Liverpool played Juventus in the 1985 European cup final at the Heysal stadium in Belguim. Just before kick off a few Liverpool fans broke into a neutral pen and headed towards the Juve fans. This was in an age when Hooliganism was at its height. The result was that the Juve fans tried to escape the fighting and headed towards the pen wall farthest away from the Liverpool hooligans (sorry but I cannot think of any other suitable word). The Juve fans were now crushed against that wall and it gave way, killing 39 supporters and injuring 600.

Now when you hear that story the words stated to Phil now has some context. As stated, they are not justified at all, they are distgusting, however one can see why Liverpool fans were labelled as such. They carried the blame for the mindless few which caused those deaths in 85.

Monty

[Jason]

I was at the same game Phil attended that day, Leicester V Chelsea, and recall a tannoy message come through at the end of the game that the Liverpool V Forest semi had been called off.

We were celebrating a win but as we left Filbert Street we heard via numerous radio carriers that there had been fatalities. The mood soon changed. The result for us didn't matter.

Now I am not condoning the words the PC said to Phil, not at all. Nor justifying them. However I do feel a little context is required here.

Some years previous, Liverpool played Juventus in the 1985 European cup final at the Heysal stadium in Belguim. Just before kick off a few Liverpool fans broke into a neutral pen and headed towards the Juve fans. This was in an age when Hooliganism was at its height. The result was that the Juve fans tried to escape the fighting and headed towards the pen wall farthest away from the Liverpool hooligans (sorry but I cannot think of any other suitable word). The Juve fans were now crushed against that wall and it gave way, killing 39 supporters and injuring 600.

Now when you hear that story the words stated to Phil now has some context. As stated, they are not justified at all, they are distgusting, however one can see why Liverpool fans were labelled as such. They carried the blame for the mindless few which caused those deaths in 85.

Monty

I think that mindset applied up to about 12.30pm last wednesday Monty.......although i think after yesterdays match at old trafford there are still some who will never accept anything different other than the "its the scousers ...so effing what". Facts around Heysel are well documented, however there is a certain event the previous year at the final in Rome when LFC fans were being stabbed as they entered the ground. Lets face facts here, english clubs were renouned throughout the 70s and 80s for their violence abroad. The English national team fans trashed the euros of 1980. Fans of Utd, Chelsea and Leeds were shockingly bad whilst abroad. The irony of Heysel in 85 is that LFC had an excellent reputation on the whole and had generally never been involved in anything major prior to Heysel. Not condoning Heysel but i think 84 in Rome had alot to do with it. The difference with Heysel compared to Hillsborough is that people went to jail and the Belgian FA were brought to task re the ground itself. Peter Robinson and John Smith had been to the ground prior to the match itself and had expressed concerns about the stadiums suitability for such a match. LFC fans who were involved went to jail and rightly so. The ban which ensued for all english fans and clubs was a cumulative ban in my opinion. What did the english fans do who were so outraged by the disgusting behaviour of LFC fans and the subsequent ban imposed to the english clubs ? well they went and caused loads of trouble at the euros in 88.

[RivkahChaya]

Thanks for that Phil, very much appreciated. I know there were probably many decent Police officers and constables working that day who were genuinely disgusted at what happened but i cant forgive them if they sat back all these years and just let the lie perpetuate even further.

Again, an American perspective is going to be different, because losing a job can mean losing pension and healthcare for yourself and your children, so I can understand someone on the bottom of the chain of command being afraid to speak up for fear of getting fired. Also, in some states, getting fired from any government job can bar you from applying for another one for a set period, so being fired from a job with the police department can mean you can't apply for any job in civil service, the public schools, state universities, civilian employee at a military base, water bureau, department of motor vehicles, the list goes on, for something like 5 years, and that doesn't just mean you can't be a police officer or a teacher; it means you can't even be on the janitorial staff. There are "whistle-blower" laws in the US now, but not in 1989.

i was something to do with an inquiry within SYP regarding a naked initiation ceremony a few weeks earlier.....people were moved around as a result

Please tell me people were moved around because the ones in charge of the naked initiations got fired, not because the naked initiates got promoted.