What offends you?

[glyn]

Vermin indeed! Would you care to rephrase that? To label verminous children as vermin will,Im sure, be deemed offensive by some .These cherubic darlinks,who are only verminous because society has made them that way,should be cuddled a little,patted on the head,and gently shown the errors of their ways.Failing that maybe a foreign holiday for them might be in order,or a subscription to the Socialist Herald.Little Angels-I love em.

[Limehouse]

Vermin indeed! Would you care to rephrase that? To label verminous children as vermin will,Im sure, be deemed offensive by some .These cherubic darlinks,who are only verminous because society has made them that way,should be cuddled a little,patted on the head,and gently shown the errors of their ways.Failing that maybe a foreign holiday for them might be in order,or a subscription to the Socialist Herald.Little Angels-I love em.

The ironic thing about your post is that you are still bashing socialism when in fact you apparently support complete freedom of speech and thought which in effect allows these teenagers to persecute this family.

[Ally]

It was neither speech nor thought that terrorized this family. Speech and thought has nothing to do with breaking windows, smearing dog feces on a door or spitting on someone.

This is not a matter or a case about free speech. This is a case about harassment pure and simple and it is disingenuous to attempt to link the two separate concepts.

There are plenty of people who call disabled or "different" people all manner of names who don't stalk and torment people. The speech is not the issue. The action is.

And it should also be pointed out that this family was not singled out. These little thugs tormented lots of people in their neighborhood. One family chose to move because of it. This woman chose to light her daughter on fire.

[Derrick]

In addition, one of the initial reports on the commission finding fault with the police also said that Pilkington had also refused help on certain occasions..mentioned once and never elaborated on in any further news reports. Why is that?

Hi Ally

Neither mind inital reports...the IPCC published it's final findings into the Pilkington case on the 24th May this year.

It is all here;

http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/news/Pages/pr_240511_pilkington.aspx

and I suggest that you should read it.

I acknowledge that the inquest returned a verdict of suicide and unlawful killing as is reported in the above link. But that was all the coroner could do at the time.

Fiona Pilkington had done everything she was asked to do. The harrasment diary she was asked to keep was not found until after her death. She realised that the police were not going to do anything despite repeated requests for help. A couple of years earlier her son, Anthony, had been subjected to a vicious gang attack at knifepoint and was locked in a shed.

But no one should be in any doubt that this vulnerable one parent family (Fiona and her 2 children all had learning difficulties to differing degrees) had been let down by our society to the point of complete and utter despair on Fiona's part.

If anyone cannot grasp that then they are without both sympathy or empathy towards a fellow human being.

Derrick

[jason_c]

Hi Ally

Neither mind inital reports...the IPCC published it's final findings into the Pilkington case on the 24th May this year.

It is all here;

http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/news/Pages/pr_240511_pilkington.aspx

and I suggest that you should read it.

I acknowledge that the inquest returned a verdict of suicide and unlawful killing as is reported in the above link. But that was all the coroner could do at the time.

Fiona Pilkington had done everything she was asked to do. The harrasment diary she was asked to keep was not found until after her death. She realised that the police were not going to do anything despite repeated requests for help. A couple of years earlier her son, Anthony, had been subjected to a vicious gang attack at knifepoint and was locked in a shed.

But no one should be in any doubt that this vulnerable one parent family (Fiona and her 2 children all had learning difficulties to differing degrees) had been let down by our society to the point of complete and utter despair on Fiona's part.

If anyone cannot grasp that then they are without both sympathy or empathy towards a fellow human being.

Derrick

The Independent Police Complaints Commission report unsurprisingly deals with the role of the police in the case. The police side of things is only a small part in the whole story.

[Ally]

I acknowledge that the inquest returned a verdict of suicide and unlawful killing as is reported in the above link. But that was all the coroner could do at the time.

Uh could that possibly be because it was a suicide and an unlawful killing...murder usually is.

Fiona Pilkington had done everything she was asked to do. The harrasment diary she was asked to keep was not found until after her death.

So she writes it...and then doesn't give it to them? Rather than handing it in to the police and standing there and refusing to leave and DEMANDING That they do something? Calling an attorney? Calling the people above the local constables? What good does writing a diary and leaving it to be found after you kill yourself do? How is that doing everything you can do?

She realised that the police were not going to do anything despite repeated requests for help.

And at that point when you realize that sitting on your ass waiting for someone else to come to your rescue isn't going to happen, you take matters into your own hands, and solve your own problems.

But no one should be in any doubt that this vulnerable one parent family (Fiona and her 2 children all had learning difficulties to differing degrees) had been let down by our society to the point of complete and utter despair on Fiona's part.

And if you are going to be a parent it is incumbent upon you to be the first line of your child's defense and if you aren't capable of it, don't have kids. Other people on that block managed to protect their children. One family moved because that was all they could do. Other parents made sure their children were protected. She killed her child.

Anyone who believes that murdering your child is an excusable or understandable response to being an over-burdened single parent is lacking in logic and needs a reality check. There is such a thing as having too much sympathy when you condone murdering a disabled child as a response to being a distraught single parent.

[Natalie Severn]

Because it was written in Greece, thereby making it Greek.

In the play ,Medea ,Euripedes deals with the complex emotions that led a mother to murder her children.The act of murder here is considered in the context of the unbearable pain and conflict the woman was enduring.A famous Greek writer therefore took time to consider with compassion what led this queen to slaughter her infants .So condemnation was mediated by deep thought not knee jerk reaction.

[Ally]

I've read it. I know the plot. It's about a selfish vindictive cow who can't deal with her man moving on so she slaughters his new wife and her own children in revenge. It's about her vengeance.

If you think she comes off as looking good in it, or even remotely understandable, we have a vastly different view of the play.

[RonIpstone]

In the play ,Medea ,Euripedes deals with the complex emotions that led a mother to murder her children.The act of murder here is considered in the context of the unbearable pain and conflict the woman was enduring.A famous Greek writer therefore took time to consider with compassion what led this queen to slaughter her infants .So condemnation was mediated by deep thought not knee jerk reaction.

So it was a Greek comedy? Strange sense of humour if so.

[Derrick]

So she writes it...and then doesn't give it to them? Rather than handing it in to the police and standing there and refusing to leave and DEMANDING That they do something? Calling an attorney? Calling the people above the local constables? What good does writing a diary and leaving it to be found after you kill yourself do? How is that doing everything you can do?

Hi Ally

Fiona Pilkington had written to her local MP who in turn reported her concerns back to the local police force....but as I said the police did nothing.

Derrick

[lynn cates]

choosing evil

Hello Ally, Norma. The philosophically interesting import of Euripides' play lies in the question, "Can one knowingly choose evil?"

The answer Medea gives, "Video meliora proboque, deteriora sequor" (I see the better path and approve it [but] I follow the lower) stands in direct contrast to the Socratic/Platonic dictum, "To know the good is to do it."

Cheers.
LC

[Stephen Thomas]

This was an enormous human tragedy.

I would suggest that Ally's posts about it here have been quite heartless.

But of course each to their own.

[Natalie Severn]

This was an enormous human tragedy.

I would suggest that Ally's posts about it here have been quite heartless.

But of course each to their own.

I agree with you Stephen.

[Natalie Severn]

Hello Ally, Norma. The philosophically interesting import of Euripides' play lies in the question, "Can one knowingly choose evil?"

The answer Medea gives, "Video meliora proboque, deteriora sequor" (I see the better path and approve it [but] I follow the lower) stands in direct contrast to the Socratic/Platonic dictum, "To know the good is to do it."

Cheers.
LC

But Lynn, Greek tragedy grew out of the rites of Dionysus.
Eurypedes had no respect for the coldly self righteous well behaved man.But he was remarkably free thinking for his time and was subversive and sceptical about the Greek myths.No one can argue either that ,'The Trojan Women' is not a clear statement against barbarism.So-not quite as clear cut as you put it---like most things in life.

[mariab]

The philosophically interesting import of Euripides' play lies in the question, "Can one knowingly choose evil?"
The answer Medea gives, "Video meliora proboque, deteriora sequor" (I see the better path and approve it [but] I follow the lower) stands in direct contrast to the Socratic/Platonic dictum, "To know the good is to do it."

Eurypedes had no respect for the coldly self righteous well behaved man.But he was remarkably free thinking for his time and was subversive and sceptical about the Greek myths.No one can argue either that ,'The Trojan Women' is not a clear statement against barbarism.So-not quite as clear cut as you put it---like most things in life.

Hello Norma and Lynn.
I fully agree that Euripides was a free thinker and, to quote Norma, “he had no respect for the coldly self-righteous well-behaved man“, i.e. for Sophocles. :-) Euripides is sometimes accused of “misogynism“ (LOL) because he was the first to introduce female anti-heros in his plays (as in Medea, Phedra). He was totally against war, and The Trojan women are a reception of the Athenians' reaction to the Peloponnesian war.
Incidentally, I'm participating in a conference organized by Oxford Uni. held in Athens in 2 weeks with a paper on The perils of reconstructing Ancient Greek tragedy in early 19th-century Neapolitan opera: Mayr’s “Medea in Corinto“, Manfroce’s “Ecuba“, Rossini’s “Ermione“, so I thought it was a funny coincidence that you started talking about Euripides today. Anyway, hope to start working on that paper tomorrow (after finishing polishing the last 40 p. of my book manuscript).
PS.: The conference is held at the Cacoyannis Foundation, and we're gonna watch his Elektra from the 1960s and other movies/productions in the evenings.