What offends you?

[Limehouse]

The race riots in Northern England suggest this is an idealised community. Middle class communities are rather different than ghetto or inner city communities. I have a friend who worked in Holland for many years. I had always believed Holland to be a liberal part of the world. Some of the stories he told of race problems in that country(Rotterdam particularly) were a real shock to me.

Wether this is best dealt with by being PC or instead having brutally honest politics(sometimes racially charged) I do not know. My guess would be the latter.

Hi Jason

I would hardly call my community middle class. For Cambridgeshire my ward is considered 'deprived'. However - there is a long tradition of multi-culturalism in this city as many Italians and Ukranians came here to work in the brick yards and on the land before WW2. The actual street in which I live is very sought after as the houses are well-built and spacious with large gardens and we have goodish schools but they are not costly to buy.

A few miles down the road things are a little different as there is much more overcrowding and mess and a lot of noise late at night due to the take-aways and bars that have opened up to cater for the large east European community. However - it is still a relatively s peaceful small city and a lot of this is down to people's determination to be accommodating and when things get a little difficult people use the right channels to address the problems. The police and local council are also quite responsive to complaints about noise and mess and inconsiderate parking.

We did have an attempt to stir up discord among the local people and the immigrants when the EDL held a march trhrough the city back in December. The march was permitted and there was a counter-march by people opposed to the EDL's attempts to stir up discord. Both marches were vocal but peaceful.

I understand that there is a lot of racial tension in bigger cities in the north of England and across parts of Europe and in times of recession - when jobs and resources are scarce - these tensions are heightened.

[Limehouse]

Life is hard. A good teaching example that some people are idiots. Want me to give you the story of the women being raped, actually physically assaulted in Africa as a political object lesson? Or the women in the Middle East beaten and stoned to death for failure to be properly moral...and happening to flash their ankles? So no, I can't really get worked up over name calling.



At this point she should have gone higher than the local police. I assume you have a next up the chain just like we do here. Or sued the parents for the damage to her home. Or caught one of them in the act and beat them with a bat til the rest got the idea not to trespass on her property or bother her. If your judicial system is so ineffective, what would happen to her, nothing, self defense. Or here's a thought, she could have moved.




And? So what. Do you expect me to feel sympathy for her now? She is a murderer. She chose to kill her daughter, because she'd rather be dead than move?



Yes. She had a lot of options available to her and her choice was to knuckle under passively and then murder her daughter.

I don't have sympathy for her death. And she had other choices in her life.

I don't really think I can respond to your points. I think we are too different in the way we see things but I fully respect your views.

[Ally]

I guess we do see things differently this is true, though I am not sure how that renders you incapable of responding to my points? I have never considered you the type who can only discourse with people you agree with.

I just fail to see why a murderer is being turned into a martyr. I have spent the last hour or so reading this case, and what I find extremely interesting is that in later reports she is said to have "committed suicide with her daughter" a whitewashing of what actually occurred if ever there was one. She burned her daughter alive. She is heinous.

In addition, one of the initial reports on the commission finding fault with the police also said that Pilkington had also refused help on certain occasions..mentioned once and never elaborated on in any further news reports. Why is that?

Turning a murderer into a martyr and failing to provide the entire story is just one more example of people attempting to lead with an emotional wave and casting reason aside in favor of sensationalism. It's a lot easier to push an agenda when people are carried on by choking emotion and blind to reason.

This was a 38 year old woman who had options and she chose to commit murder. And she's being martyred for it? Yeah there is definitely something wrong with a society who encourages people to be victims their whole lives and then reveres them when they turn into murderers.

[TomTomKent]

A matyr suggests she is revered for what she did. She is not. The taking of her life and that of her daughter was horrid. That she was seemingly driven to it by those who bullied her makes it tragic.

My reading of the posts has been Limehouse symapthising with what drove her into the despair where she considered murder, not the suicide murder itself. She should never have been pushed into that possition, and those who made her life hell should accept some of the responsibility.

Just my humble opinion.

[Limehouse]

I guess we do see things differently this is true, though I am not sure how that renders you incapable of responding to my points? I have never considered you the type who can only discourse with people you agree with.

I just fail to see why a murderer is being turned into a martyr. I have spent the last hour or so reading this case, and what I find extremely interesting is that in later reports she is said to have "committed suicide with her daughter" a whitewashing of what actually occurred if ever there was one.

In addition, one of the initial reports on the commission finding fault with the police also said that Pilkington had also refused help on certain occasions..mentioned once and never elaborated on in any further news reports. Why is that?

Turning a murderer into a martyr and failing to provide the entire story is just one more example of people attempting to lead with an emotional wave and casting reason aside in favor of sensationalism. It's a lot easier to push an agenda when people are carried on by choking emotion and blind to reason.

This was a 37 year old woman who had options and she chose to commit murder. And she's being martyred for it? Yeah there is definitely something wrong with a society who encourages people to be victims their whole lives and then reveres them when they turn into murderers.

I didn't intentionally fail to provide the whole story. The reason I am aware of this story is that my daughter is a paramedic in Leicstershire and colleagues of hers had to deal with the aftermath.

I didn't intend to make her a martyr. I felt it was a good example of someone struggling to deal with a difficult situation whose life was made intolerable by people for no good reason other than their hatred for her daughter because she was physicall and mentally disabled. Why should she move? Why shouldn't her tormenters have been forced to move?

I don't know what sort of help she refused but I do know that she complained many times to the police and her tormenters continued to abuse her. She must have been terrified and in great distress to do what she did.

In my view - if we allow people to abuse the mentally handicapped in the name of freedom we are just a few steps away from the death camps of Hitler's Germany.

[Ally]

Hi TTK,

She wasn't driven to it. No one held a literal gun to her head. As I pointed out, she had other options. These were teenage children. You are telling me that teenagers can emotionally force adult strangers into committing murder? No, sorry, I do not accept that. She was an adult. She was fully responsible for her own actions, just like those brats were fully responsible for theirs.

What about their crappy home life? What about the forces at work in their situations that drove them to doing what they did? What if they were driven to it by abusive or indifferent parents and they needed a vent for their rage and pain and anger? Why are teenagers being given more blame than the woman who lit the match?

Where does the cycle of "blame someone else" end and people start being forced to bear the responsibility of their own actions?

[Ally]

I didn't intentionally fail to provide the whole story. The reason I am aware of this story is that my daughter is a paramedic in Leicstershire and colleagues of hers had to deal with the aftermath.

I wasn't meaning you. I was talking about the newspaper reports which fail to illustrate the times listed in the reports where she failed to accept the help that was offered to her.

Why should she move? Why shouldn't her tormenters have been forced to move?

If your choices are move or murder your daughter, which do you pick? I am not saying that she should have been "forced" to move. I am saying, if she was completely ill-equipped to handle this situation, she had the option of moving. She had other choices than lighting her daughter on fire and burning her alive.

I don't know what sort of help she refused but I do know that she complained many times to the police and her tormenters continued to abuse her.

Exactly, you don't know what sort of help she refused because no one bothers to write about that part. It's much sexier to go oh the police were totally to blame rather than pointing out that she had options she chose not to explore.

In my view - if we allow people to abuse the mentally handicapped in the name of freedom we are just a few steps away from the death camps of Hitler's Germany.

In my view, that's emotional hyperbole. Note that the person who put this disabled girl in the crematorium was not in fact the people who called her names but in fact her mother.

[TomTomKent]

Hi TTK,

She wasn't driven to it. No one held a literal gun to her head. As I pointed out, she had other options. These were teenage children. You are telling me that teenagers can emotionally force adult strangers into committing murder? No, sorry, I do not accept that. She was an adult. She was fully responsible for her own actions, just like those brats were fully responsible for theirs.

What about their crappy home life? What about the forces at work in their situations that drove them to doing what they did? What if they were driven to it by abusive or indifferent parents and they needed a vent for their rage and pain and anger? Why are teenagers being given more blame than the woman who lit the match?

Where does the cycle of "blame someone else" end and people start being forced to bear the responsibility of their own actions?

I did not say they should be given more blame. My opinion was that they should take a share of the responsibility. It would seem (though I can not say this for a fact, only how it seems to me) that the woman in question was suffering a break down, and by the nature of her actions was no longer capable of thinking clearly. This does indeed remind me of others I have seen who have been completely crushed by bullies, which is by no means related to the physical stature of the bullies. They may have been just teenagers, but each and every day they chipped away at her morale. The ulitmate responsibility may have been hers, but that does not relieve the bullies of their guilt, nor the authorities, nor those who bullied the bullies.

It is exactly that nature which makes this case so tragic.

[glyn]

Maybe the phrase "passing the buck" springs to mind?

[Natalie Severn]

Why is Medea a Greek tragedy?

[Ally]

Because it was written in Greece, thereby making it Greek.

[Limehouse]

Maybe the phrase "passing the buck" springs to mind?

Could you elaborate on tha comment? Who is passing the buck?

[Ally]

It would seem (though I can not say this for a fact, only how it seems to me) that the woman in question was suffering a break down, and by the nature of her actions was no longer capable of thinking clearly.

Here is the problem I have with this. This was apparently not the first time she had contemplated suicide. According to family and friends, she had considered doing this exact thing before only with both of her children in the car. At that point, when she did not go through with it the first time, it was incumbent upon her to go, "you know, this has gotten out of hand. I am contemplating killing my kids over a lot of freaking teenage bastards, how freaking stupid is that" and at that point get her freaking act together. She didn't just snap. She had a long time to think about what she was doing and what she was going to do, and rather than doing anything active to change her circumstances or her situation, she just sat back and let circumstances take her down. There is a huge gulf in my mind between choosing to kill yourself, and choosing to murder someone else. There is a selfishness and a narcissism involved in the latter that makes me entirely incapable of drudging up any sympathy whatsoever. If she had lit one of the teenage bastards on fire, I'd have sympathy for her even. That I could see as justifiable--killing those who torment you or attack you first has some defense. Choosing to kill an innocent, because of your own selfishness, is absolutely indefensible and has no excuse and the person who does it, in my opinion, bears the full and total weight of those actions.

This does indeed remind me of others I have seen who have been completely crushed by bullies, which is by no means related to the physical stature of the bullies. They may have been just teenagers, but each and every day they chipped away at her morale.

And who gave them the power to do that? She did. Bullies have no power over you, save that which you grant them.

[glyn]

Could you elaborate on tha comment? Who is passing the buck?

Maybe Jack the Ripper was bullied too.Maybe the people that bullied him were bullied by others in turn. No man is an island its true,but ultimately the doer of the deed is responsible for their actions.If we lose sight of that,then there really is no point.

[Derrick]

The true irony in the Pilkington case was when the scumbags who were largely responsible (the vermin children from a family called Simmons) were publicly named they got around the clock police protection and sobbed that they were being harassed.

Derrick