What offends you?

[glyn]

Maybe the phrase "passing the buck" springs to mind?

[TomTomKent]

Hi TTK,

She wasn't driven to it. No one held a literal gun to her head. As I pointed out, she had other options. These were teenage children. You are telling me that teenagers can emotionally force adult strangers into committing murder? No, sorry, I do not accept that. She was an adult. She was fully responsible for her own actions, just like those brats were fully responsible for theirs.

What about their crappy home life? What about the forces at work in their situations that drove them to doing what they did? What if they were driven to it by abusive or indifferent parents and they needed a vent for their rage and pain and anger? Why are teenagers being given more blame than the woman who lit the match?

Where does the cycle of "blame someone else" end and people start being forced to bear the responsibility of their own actions?

I did not say they should be given more blame. My opinion was that they should take a share of the responsibility. It would seem (though I can not say this for a fact, only how it seems to me) that the woman in question was suffering a break down, and by the nature of her actions was no longer capable of thinking clearly. This does indeed remind me of others I have seen who have been completely crushed by bullies, which is by no means related to the physical stature of the bullies. They may have been just teenagers, but each and every day they chipped away at her morale. The ulitmate responsibility may have been hers, but that does not relieve the bullies of their guilt, nor the authorities, nor those who bullied the bullies.

It is exactly that nature which makes this case so tragic.

[Ally]

I didn't intentionally fail to provide the whole story. The reason I am aware of this story is that my daughter is a paramedic in Leicstershire and colleagues of hers had to deal with the aftermath.

I wasn't meaning you. I was talking about the newspaper reports which fail to illustrate the times listed in the reports where she failed to accept the help that was offered to her.

Why should she move? Why shouldn't her tormenters have been forced to move?

If your choices are move or murder your daughter, which do you pick? I am not saying that she should have been "forced" to move. I am saying, if she was completely ill-equipped to handle this situation, she had the option of moving. She had other choices than lighting her daughter on fire and burning her alive.

I don't know what sort of help she refused but I do know that she complained many times to the police and her tormenters continued to abuse her.

Exactly, you don't know what sort of help she refused because no one bothers to write about that part. It's much sexier to go oh the police were totally to blame rather than pointing out that she had options she chose not to explore.

In my view - if we allow people to abuse the mentally handicapped in the name of freedom we are just a few steps away from the death camps of Hitler's Germany.

In my view, that's emotional hyperbole. Note that the person who put this disabled girl in the crematorium was not in fact the people who called her names but in fact her mother.

[Ally]

Hi TTK,

She wasn't driven to it. No one held a literal gun to her head. As I pointed out, she had other options. These were teenage children. You are telling me that teenagers can emotionally force adult strangers into committing murder? No, sorry, I do not accept that. She was an adult. She was fully responsible for her own actions, just like those brats were fully responsible for theirs.

What about their crappy home life? What about the forces at work in their situations that drove them to doing what they did? What if they were driven to it by abusive or indifferent parents and they needed a vent for their rage and pain and anger? Why are teenagers being given more blame than the woman who lit the match?

Where does the cycle of "blame someone else" end and people start being forced to bear the responsibility of their own actions?

[Limehouse]

I guess we do see things differently this is true, though I am not sure how that renders you incapable of responding to my points? I have never considered you the type who can only discourse with people you agree with.

I just fail to see why a murderer is being turned into a martyr. I have spent the last hour or so reading this case, and what I find extremely interesting is that in later reports she is said to have "committed suicide with her daughter" a whitewashing of what actually occurred if ever there was one.

In addition, one of the initial reports on the commission finding fault with the police also said that Pilkington had also refused help on certain occasions..mentioned once and never elaborated on in any further news reports. Why is that?

Turning a murderer into a martyr and failing to provide the entire story is just one more example of people attempting to lead with an emotional wave and casting reason aside in favor of sensationalism. It's a lot easier to push an agenda when people are carried on by choking emotion and blind to reason.

This was a 37 year old woman who had options and she chose to commit murder. And she's being martyred for it? Yeah there is definitely something wrong with a society who encourages people to be victims their whole lives and then reveres them when they turn into murderers.

I didn't intentionally fail to provide the whole story. The reason I am aware of this story is that my daughter is a paramedic in Leicstershire and colleagues of hers had to deal with the aftermath.

I didn't intend to make her a martyr. I felt it was a good example of someone struggling to deal with a difficult situation whose life was made intolerable by people for no good reason other than their hatred for her daughter because she was physicall and mentally disabled. Why should she move? Why shouldn't her tormenters have been forced to move?

I don't know what sort of help she refused but I do know that she complained many times to the police and her tormenters continued to abuse her. She must have been terrified and in great distress to do what she did.

In my view - if we allow people to abuse the mentally handicapped in the name of freedom we are just a few steps away from the death camps of Hitler's Germany.

[TomTomKent]

A matyr suggests she is revered for what she did. She is not. The taking of her life and that of her daughter was horrid. That she was seemingly driven to it by those who bullied her makes it tragic.

My reading of the posts has been Limehouse symapthising with what drove her into the despair where she considered murder, not the suicide murder itself. She should never have been pushed into that possition, and those who made her life hell should accept some of the responsibility.

Just my humble opinion.

[Ally]

I guess we do see things differently this is true, though I am not sure how that renders you incapable of responding to my points? I have never considered you the type who can only discourse with people you agree with.

I just fail to see why a murderer is being turned into a martyr. I have spent the last hour or so reading this case, and what I find extremely interesting is that in later reports she is said to have "committed suicide with her daughter" a whitewashing of what actually occurred if ever there was one. She burned her daughter alive. She is heinous.

In addition, one of the initial reports on the commission finding fault with the police also said that Pilkington had also refused help on certain occasions..mentioned once and never elaborated on in any further news reports. Why is that?

Turning a murderer into a martyr and failing to provide the entire story is just one more example of people attempting to lead with an emotional wave and casting reason aside in favor of sensationalism. It's a lot easier to push an agenda when people are carried on by choking emotion and blind to reason.

This was a 38 year old woman who had options and she chose to commit murder. And she's being martyred for it? Yeah there is definitely something wrong with a society who encourages people to be victims their whole lives and then reveres them when they turn into murderers.

[Limehouse]

Life is hard. A good teaching example that some people are idiots. Want me to give you the story of the women being raped, actually physically assaulted in Africa as a political object lesson? Or the women in the Middle East beaten and stoned to death for failure to be properly moral...and happening to flash their ankles? So no, I can't really get worked up over name calling.



At this point she should have gone higher than the local police. I assume you have a next up the chain just like we do here. Or sued the parents for the damage to her home. Or caught one of them in the act and beat them with a bat til the rest got the idea not to trespass on her property or bother her. If your judicial system is so ineffective, what would happen to her, nothing, self defense. Or here's a thought, she could have moved.




And? So what. Do you expect me to feel sympathy for her now? She is a murderer. She chose to kill her daughter, because she'd rather be dead than move?



Yes. She had a lot of options available to her and her choice was to knuckle under passively and then murder her daughter.

I don't have sympathy for her death. And she had other choices in her life.

I don't really think I can respond to your points. I think we are too different in the way we see things but I fully respect your views.

[Limehouse]

The race riots in Northern England suggest this is an idealised community. Middle class communities are rather different than ghetto or inner city communities. I have a friend who worked in Holland for many years. I had always believed Holland to be a liberal part of the world. Some of the stories he told of race problems in that country(Rotterdam particularly) were a real shock to me.

Wether this is best dealt with by being PC or instead having brutally honest politics(sometimes racially charged) I do not know. My guess would be the latter.

Hi Jason

I would hardly call my community middle class. For Cambridgeshire my ward is considered 'deprived'. However - there is a long tradition of multi-culturalism in this city as many Italians and Ukranians came here to work in the brick yards and on the land before WW2. The actual street in which I live is very sought after as the houses are well-built and spacious with large gardens and we have goodish schools but they are not costly to buy.

A few miles down the road things are a little different as there is much more overcrowding and mess and a lot of noise late at night due to the take-aways and bars that have opened up to cater for the large east European community. However - it is still a relatively s peaceful small city and a lot of this is down to people's determination to be accommodating and when things get a little difficult people use the right channels to address the problems. The police and local council are also quite responsive to complaints about noise and mess and inconsiderate parking.

We did have an attempt to stir up discord among the local people and the immigrants when the EDL held a march trhrough the city back in December. The march was permitted and there was a counter-march by people opposed to the EDL's attempts to stir up discord. Both marches were vocal but peaceful.

I understand that there is a lot of racial tension in bigger cities in the north of England and across parts of Europe and in times of recession - when jobs and resources are scarce - these tensions are heightened.

[jason_c]

Absolutly Norma. And I would say most people do live together harmoniously even when they come from vastly different cultures. There are 24 homes in my cul-de-sac and in them live English -Poles - Lithuanians - Slavs -Pakistanis - Christians - Muslims - homosexuals - heterosexuals and possibly Pagans - and we all get along and exchange Christmas cards and live our private lives privately and unmolested.

The race riots in Northern England suggest this is an idealised community. Middle class communities are rather different than ghetto or inner city communities. I have a friend who worked in Holland for many years. I had always believed Holland to be a liberal part of the world. Some of the stories he told of race problems in that country(Rotterdam particularly) were a real shock to me.

Wether this is best dealt with by being PC or instead having brutally honest politics(sometimes racially charged) I do not know. My guess would be the latter.

[Ally]

Fiona Pilkinton was a lone mother with two teenage children living on an estate in Leicestershire. Her daughter had physical and mental disabilities and caring for her was extremely challenging.

Fiona and her family were plagued with abuse from local youths. They were called names and spat at in the street.

Life is hard. A good teaching example that some people are idiots. Want me to give you the story of the women being raped, actually physically assaulted in Africa as a political object lesson? Or the women in the Middle East beaten and stoned to death for failure to be properly moral...and happening to flash their ankles? So no, I can't really get worked up over name calling.

Their home was bombarded with rocks and stones and dog mess was pushed through their letter box. Fiona complained to the council and to the police numerous times but the abuse continued. Parents of the youths concerned did not stop their offspring from attacking this family. Fiona's daughter was terrified byu the attacks and Fiona herself was heatbroken that they were being targeted just because her daughter had disabilities.

At this point she should have gone higher than the local police. I assume you have a next up the chain just like we do here. Or sued the parents for the damage to her home. Or caught one of them in the act and beat them with a bat til the rest got the idea not to trespass on her property or bother her. If your judicial system is so ineffective, what would happen to her, nothing, self defense. Or here's a thought, she could have moved.

Finally - Fiona could take no more. She drove her daughter to a quiet lay-by and set light to the car with them both inside. They died a horrible death.

And? So what. Do you expect me to feel sympathy for her now? She is a murderer. She chose to kill her daughter, because she'd rather be dead than move?

Did Fiona and her family really have to endure such treatment in the name of freedom?

Yes. She had a lot of options available to her and her choice was to knuckle under passively and then murder her daughter.

I don't have sympathy for her death. And she had other choices in her life.

[Limehouse]

Hi everybody,
Those of us who live in communities and are not hermits are social animals and depend on each other ,to a greater or lesser extent, to survive.Courtesy or polite behaviour, avoids the hurting of other people's feelings in these communities and enables people to live more harmoniously together.Most people seem to live happier,healthier lives that way.
Norma

Absolutly Norma. And I would say most people do live together harmoniously even when they come from vastly different cultures. There are 24 homes in my cul-de-sac and in them live English -Poles - Lithuanians - Slavs -Pakistanis - Christians - Muslims - homosexuals - heterosexuals and possibly Pagans - and we all get along and exchange Christmas cards and live our private lives privately and unmolested.

[Limehouse]

Have a good sleep!

I just wanted to clarify that I was not in fact offended by the previous discussion regarding euthanasia, in case I was not clear. I was just using it as an example of how two people could both have differing beliefs on a sensitive subject, both coming by them honestly and how one could take offense beyond the others ability to control.

Morning Ally

Ok - I've slept on it (well I thought about it in bed) and first I thought about a word 'intention' and this morning I read your post above and it amounts to the same thing. You can offend osmeon without intending to offend them - just by giving your view. However - if you intend to offend someone - and you do so using language and behaviour that oppresses them and degrades them - in order to do them harm - then that is surely wrong.

I'll give you an example. A few posts back - someone was saying that a person 'chooses to be offended' and that 'names can't hurt people'.
Here is a sad story to show that people can be very greatly harmed.

Fiona Pilkinton was a lone mother with two teenage children living on an estate in Leicestershire. Her daughter had physical and mental disabilities and caring for her was extremely challenging.

Fiona and her family were plagued with abuse from local youths. They were called names and spat at in the street. Their home was bombarded with rocks and stones and dog mess was pushed through their letter box. Fiona complained to the council and to the police numerous times but the abuse continued. Parents of the youths concerned did not stop their offspring from attacking this family. Fiona's daughter was terrified byu the attacks and Fiona herself was heatbroken that they were being targeted just because her daughter had disabilities.

Finally - Fiona could take no more. She drove her daughter to a quiet lay-by and set light to the car with them both inside. They died a horrible death.

Did Fiona and her family really have to endure such treatment in the name of freedom?

[Natalie Severn]

Hi everybody,
Those of us who live in communities and are not hermits are social animals and depend on each other ,to a greater or lesser extent, to survive.Courtesy or polite behaviour, avoids the hurting of other people's feelings in these communities and enables people to live more harmoniously together.Most people seem to live happier,healthier lives that way.
Norma

[Ally]

Have a good sleep!

I just wanted to clarify that I was not in fact offended by the previous discussion regarding euthanasia, in case I was not clear. I was just using it as an example of how two people could both have differing beliefs on a sensitive subject, both coming by them honestly and how one could take offense beyond the others ability to control.