What offends you?

[Limehouse]

I'm good at that aren't I? But actually, I kind of believe that's the point of life, to ask the questions everyone else takes for granted and really examine what motivates us and why we believe what we believe in regards to the questions that most people wouldn't think to ask.



But that doesn't really deal with the subject of offense. What I mean is, and as said previously, you cannot control what someone will take offense to.

Using an example previously of a discussion, what if I told you that I found it deeply insulting and highly offensive that you would condemn me to a horrible death of drowning in my own blood vomit, or paralyzed and incapable of moving out of my own waste and filth, slowly going mad trapped inside my body...what if I find it offensive that you would prefer this for me, and based solely on your own fears, deny me a choice on how to live my own life?

What now? You have offended me. Are you going to change your mind? Are you never going to speak on the subject again for fear that you might offend?






Your are juxtaposing two different concepts. The opposite of "good" is not "different". The opposite of "bad" is not "conformity" One can both look for the good and the differences in people, and celebrate and appreciate the differences and grow and broaden ones perspective.

But regardless, once again, this is your opinion on what should be valued in people. To the deeply religious who view homosexuality as a sin against god (hypocrisy aside in their singling out this one vice), they may well view homosexuals as akin to murderers and rapists. They find gay people as deeply offensive as I find bible-thumpers. I am not going to change their mind and I refuse to allow someone to tell me I can' t call them bigoted, idiotic, narrow-minded, hypocritical dumbasses if I want to, for fear of causing offense.

That's the thing: they are just as convinced of their rightness as I am. I can't remove their right to speech without removing my own. Therefore, they have to be allowed to be as hateful as they want to be.

OK - you are making some really good points. I do completely accept your take on the euthanasia debate and you have introduced an aspect that I hadn't completely thought through.

However - I am struggling with people being given the right to be hateful. I see the argument you are making - but I can't embrace it personally. However - I appreciate your approach and I'll have to think about it a bit more over a good night's sleep!

[Ally]

It's kind of hard to answer your question Ally - but that's because not many people would think about asking it and when you're put on the spot it makes you think hard about why you would not want to offend others.

I'm good at that aren't I? But actually, I kind of believe that's the point of life, to ask the questions everyone else takes for granted and really examine what motivates us and why we believe what we believe in regards to the questions that most people wouldn't think to ask.

I suppose I want people to feel good - to feel valued and respected.

But that doesn't really deal with the subject of offense. What I mean is, and as said previously, you cannot control what someone will take offense to.

Using an example previously of a discussion, what if I told you that I found it deeply insulting and highly offensive that you would condemn me to a horrible death of drowning in my own blood vomit, or paralyzed and incapable of moving out of my own waste and filth, slowly going mad trapped inside my body...what if I find it offensive that you would prefer this for me, and based solely on your own fears, would choose to deny me a choice on how to live my own life?

What now? You have offended me. Are you going to change your mind? Are you never going to speak on the subject again for fear that you might offend?

I think it's a good thing that abuse of that type is no longer acceptable. I think it's better to see the good in people than look for difference.

Your are juxtaposing two different concepts. The opposite of "good" is not "different". The opposite of "bad" is not "conformity" One can both look for the good and the differences in people, and celebrate and appreciate the differences and grow and broaden ones perspective.

But regardless, once again, this is your opinion on what should be valued in people. To the deeply religious who view homosexuality as a sin against god (hypocrisy aside in their singling out this one vice), they may well view homosexuals as akin to murderers and rapists. They find gay people as deeply offensive as I find bible-thumpers. I am not going to change their mind and I refuse to allow someone to tell me I can' t call them bigoted, idiotic, narrow-minded, hypocritical dumbasses if I want to, for fear of causing offense.

That's the thing: they are just as convinced of their rightness as I am. I can't remove their right to speech without removing my own. Therefore, they have to be allowed to be as hateful as they want to be.

[Limehouse]

But those are exclusions you apply. What about ridiculing people who use n*gger or jewboy as insults? Would you have a problem ridiculing them? Everyone applies their own standards to their exemption list, so who gets to create the master list?

But of course, my main thrust deals more with the matter of offending than ridicule. And I would like to know:

Why should we be concerned with offending others?

It's kind of hard to answer your question Ally - but that's because not many people would think about asking it and when you're put on the spot it makes you think hard about why you would not want to offend others.

I suppose I want people to feel good - to feel valued and respected. Now historically - say when I was a child - a lot of people were not valued and respected because of things like their colour or their religion or their disabilities or their sexuality. Not only were they not respected - but they were often subject to abuse. I think it's a good thing that abuse of that type is no longer acceptable. I think it's better to see the good in people than look for difference.

[lynn cates]

paradigm

Hello Ally.

"Why should we be concerned with offending others?"

Now THAT'S an excellent question. And the answer, I think, depends upon one's ethical paradigm.

At one pole, an ethical egoist (like professor Rand) shouldn't care a feather or a fig about offending someone (unless it should lead to personal disutility).

At the opposite end of the spectrum (oops, mixed metaphor?), the Kantians and Natural Law camps see something of the Divine or transcendental in humankind. Therefore, etc.

Many of the camps in between deal with the topic on an ad hoc basis.

Cheers.
LC

[Ally]

But those are exclusions you apply. What about ridiculing people who use n*gger or jewboy as insults? Would you have a problem ridiculing them? Everyone applies their own standards to their exemption list, so who gets to create the master list?

But of course, my main thrust deals more with the matter of offending than ridicule. And I would like to know:

Why should we be concerned with offending others?

[Stephen Thomas]

but why precisely should we refrain from ridiculing or offending others?

There's ridicule and ridicule, Ally, as you must well know. Somebody earlier linked Political Correctness with human decency and that's my position ie that someone should not be insulted for stuff they have no control over.

Jewboys and n*ggers anybody?

[babybird67]

I remember that episode of HIGNFY

classic it certainly was!

[Derrick]

I live in an area where average income is low and where unemployment is relatively high.

The newly re-energized NF tried to march here a few years ago and were confronted by a very large crowd. After an hour and before they could address their small support the old bill advised them to use their return tickets earlier than expected.

During the last council elections here the BNP leafleted during the middle of the night. I was up late one night when their sad drivel dropped through the letterbox at 2:30am. I went outside and shouted and the scumbag ran off.

A few days later on, the Tory looking BNP candidate knocked at my door and was being escorted by 2 meatheads. After being told to "piss off, Nazi scum" he walked away caling me all sorts of names. He came last thankfully.

At that time the SWP were selling their propaganda outside W H Smith at lunchtime on a Saturday on a regular basis.

At least the SWP have the guts to stand there rather than doing a covert moonlit drop like the self knowing cowardly and unpopular Nazi's.

For me the best part of Furher Griffin appearing on Question Time was when it was taken up by HIGNFY. His picture appeared and not one of the panel could actually identify who the sad twat was. Deathly silence. Classic.

Derrick

[Limehouse]

How about "racist scum"..."bigoted bastards"...."war mongering right wingers"....."feminists"......"murdering abortionists"...."tory bastards"
The list is long.......

Like I said before - I haven't seen them scrawled on walls near my home. I don't see what's wrong with the term 'feminist' anyway.

[Ally]

Surely if we value freedom of speech we should seek to use that freedom responsibly and not use it to ridicule or offend others?

Why? No really, not being sarcastic, at all, but why precisely should we refrain from ridiculing or offending others?

[glyn]

I don't care who is/was wearing it - I personally think it is offensive - but not racist.

This is a laugh a minute........IF its not racist,why do you find it offensive? what on earth is offensive about it? Bigoted maybe?

[glyn]

How about "racist scum"..."bigoted bastards"...."war mongering right wingers"....."feminists"......"murdering abortionists"...."tory bastards"
The list is long.......

[Limehouse]

Imagine a photo of the Union jack inserted here first of all.

This is the British Flag.
Dont you like it?
Does it offend you?
Good!
This is Britain!
If you dont like it
F*** Off!

Is that racist? or is it plain old fashioned common sense comment?...i.e dont moan-do something about it.
Seen ,actually ,by me recently on a T shirt worn,would you believe it by a jamaican in coldharbour lane Brixton.

I don't care who is/was wearing it - I personally think it is offensive - but not racist.

[Limehouse]

How about "Americans are overpaid,oversexed and over here"......".Moslem terrorists" as opposed to "Moslem fundamentalists"......."White trash"...."Red neck"..."Snowflake"..."White imperialist"....."Greedy rich industrialists"..."The idle filthy rich"...etc ad nauseum....do those phrases OFFEND you too?

Well - I've never seen any of those phrases scrawled across walls where I live but - yes- they do offend me and I WOULD object to them.

[glyn]

Imagine a photo of the Union jack inserted here first of all.

This is the British Flag.
Dont you like it?
Does it offend you?
Good!
This is Britain!
If you dont like it
F*** Off!

Is that racist? or is it plain old fashioned common sense comment?...i.e dont moan-do something about it.
Seen ,actually ,by me recently on a T shirt worn,would you believe it by a jamaican in coldharbour lane Brixton.