Jilted Ex-Boyfriend Puts Up Abortion Billboard

[Errata]

I understand your position and its been a spirited debate
I guess now we can just agree to disagree
Jordan

I am often afraid I do not make myself understood on such matters. But if you understand my fears on this, then yes. We can agree to disagree.

[Errata]

Do we even know why he thinks she had an abortion instead of miscarrying? I think if we are brutally honest, most people are not so familiar with the medical practices relating to reproductive health that they are incapable of severely misunderstanding certain procedures or threats.

For example, most people who know what an ectopic pregnancy is do not consider the removal of such as abortion. It is clearly a situation that can only result in the death of the embryo, and the severe harm or death of the mother. However there are people out there who simply do not not believe that. They honestly think that given time the embryo will move to the uterus, or that a doctor can move it, and it simply isn't so.

I mentioned previously that women who miscarry frequently require a D&C to remove the placenta etc. so the the woman does not die of septic shock. It is also not uncommon to try and do a D&C when the fetus is dying, to try and prevent massive blood loss and harm to the uterus that a miscarriage can cause. Clearly that is a more grey area, but despite the leaps and bounds in progress made in fetal surgery, there is little doctors can do to save a dying fetus. I believe that a doctor then has a duty to do everything in his power to save the life and childbearing ability of the mother. Others disagree.

For that matter, are we even sure he is referring to abortion? Is it possible that he thinks that her lifestyle or her environment or even her religious beliefs caused her miscarriage? I mean, does he think that she had a couple of beers and thats why she lost the baby? Or G-d forbid, that she broke up with him flouted god's will that they be together forever, and god in turn punished her by causing her to miscarry?

And what the hell is a 35 year old man doing impregnating a teenager anyway? I mean, in the end not terribly relevant, but I would think that if you were absolutely against abortion, you wouldn't knock up an 18 year old kid. Evidently he says he even refused to marry her after he found out she was pregnant. Which is his right (and probably the right decision), but you're not exactly creating a safe and stable environment where she feels that she can be a mother at such a young age.

Which is rule number one in asserting your rights as a father, by the way. You make sure that a: she knows your wishes and b: that you are absolutely beyond a shadow of a doubt going to be a permanent fixture in the child's life, and have the resources to do so. Even if it means being a single father.

Piss poor planning on his part. So really, one of the lessons to be learned here is don't sleep with an immature young kid and expect her to not be scared out of her mind when she get's pregnant, and expect her to choose to completely alter her live and become a loving mother without your absolute guarantee of support. Because when a girl wants to get married when she finds out she's pregnant, she doesn't really want to get married. She's actually terrified of doing it alone.

[Hatchett]

Hi Errata,

I think the problem here is that when soiled linen is displayed in public like that it usually results in people taking sides, either for the alleged victim (the proclaimer) or the other side on the recieving end.

Both sides of course are vitually devoid of any relevent information. So it results in heated views, opinions and debates on issues that could or could be not part of the case.

None of us know enough about all of this to make a ballanced decision on what happened and who was to blame for the abortion if there was one, or the preganancy in the first place, or the lack of communication between the two people concerned.

The only point I will make is that I think it is mean spirited for this highly personal problem to have been put into the public arena where all sorts of things are guessed at and discussed. It certainly could never have resolved the situation, and quite possibly, escalated it so high that it could never be resolved.

Best wishes.

[Errata]

Hi Errata,

I think the problem here is that when soiled linen is displayed in public like that it usually results in people taking sides, either for the alleged victim (the proclaimer) or the other side on the recieving end.

Both sides of course are vitually devoid of any relevent information. So it results in heated views, opinions and debates on issues that could or could be not part of the case.

None of us know enough about all of this to make a ballanced decision on what happened and who was to blame for the abortion if there was one, or the preganancy in the first place, or the lack of communication between the two people concerned.

The only point I will make is that I think it is mean spirited for this highly personal problem to have been put into the public arena where all sorts of things are guessed at and discussed. It certainly could never have resolved the situation, and quite possibly, escalated it so high that it could never be resolved.

Best wishes.

You are correct. We don't know anything. I just never get a good vibe off of adults dating teenagers, however technically legally the teenager may be. I have some experience in the matter that obviously colors my judgement, but I feel pretty comfortable in saying that an adult who dates a teenager is generally incapable of mature adult behavior. Which might explain the billboard.

[babybird67]

i didn't realise he was an adult sleeping with a teenager

maybe she should put a billboard up labelling him a paedophile?

After all, it would be an original form of revenge, and as such, obviously totally justifiable.

[babybird67]

Nevermind.

Never mind is two words. I only mention it as your 'may' where I used 'might' appears to be some form of comment on my use of grammar and vocabulary.

I don't......but I can only say I am taking this at face value so many times.

Why are you taking it at face value? Why don't you take the woman's claim that she had a miscarriage as the truth? What reason do you have to put faith in anything this man says?

It would be hypocritical if I took actions to get what you wrote removed, but I didn't.....infact if you actually read what I wrote I said I did not care what a no-mark on a website wrote......so HAHA!

So it's ok for anybody to say anything about anybody else then? Regardless of truth? Nice position.

I never said she was but, but if I can be worse than him for admiring an original and non-violent form of revenge.....I'm sure you can be worse than her.

You don't seem to understand your attempt at insulting me was meaningless since she has done nothing wrong. She is a victim. So if you think accusing someone of being worse than someone else who suffered a miscarriage, I can only advise you you need a new form of insults, because that one really doesn't cut it.

Revenge is not something to be admired. It is what mean childish people do when they cannot get their own way. It is not something to condone or admire when someone who does not know the truth about a situation puts lies and rumours in a public domain about somebody else. At least, I don't think it is. I think its reprehensible. I also think the support of it is reprehensible. We obviously have different moral standards, and that's fine.

Quite right, you are not condoning it you are activly taking part in it......and with all your HAHA's and LOL's you seem to be enjoying it......and the sad part it you don't even realise you are doing it.

I am actively taking part in trying to defend the victim. The LOLs and HAHAs are directed at your attitude, not the situation, because i find the defence of gossip and lies laughable.

Hope that clears that up for you.

[Sally]

A lot of pregnancies end is miscarriage - it's about a quarter, I think, so this lady could easily have had a miscarriage. Its very common.

Also, the medical term is 'abortion' whether the foetus has died through spontaneous miscarriage or through a planned abortion - which does lead to confusion sometimes.

As far as I know, allegations of abortion are quite commonly directed at women who have had miscarriages - there seems to be a lot of perceived fault attached to something that is beyond anybody's control, ultimately.

[DirectorDave]

[QUOTE=babybird67;178731]Never mind is two words. I only mention it as your 'may' where I used 'might' appears to be some form of comment on my use of grammar and vocabulary.

Nope I would be the last person to do that (sorry I cannot provide any evidence to that effect)

My "may" should have been "might" as in "Might have prevented the need for an..."

So I apologise for misquoting myself....but seems like folk have been misquoting me all night so I'm not too fussed.

Why are you taking it at face value? Why don't you take the woman's claim that she had a miscarriage as the truth? What reason do you have to put faith in anything this man says?

Why are you taking it at face value? Why don't you take the man's claim that she had a abortion as the truth? What reason do you have to put faith in anything this woman says?

(see how this works?)

So it's ok for anybody to say anything about anybody else then? Regardless of truth? Nice position.

Well you are the expert there so I will leave you to answer that yourself.

You don't seem to understand your attempt at insulting me was meaningless since she has done nothing wrong. She is a victim. So if you think accusing someone of being worse than someone else who suffered a miscarriage, I can only advise you you need a new form of insults, because that one really doesn't cut it.

I fully understand it was meaningless in fact thats why I said it....and it was not an attempt at insulting you it was an attempt to see how silly your "I'm worse than him" statement was.....I obviously failed.

Revenge is not something to be admired. It is what mean childish people do when they cannot get their own way. It is not something to condone or admire when someone who does not know the truth about a situation puts lies and rumours in a public domain about somebody else. At least, I don't think it is. I think its reprehensible. I also think the support of it is reprehensible. We obviously have different moral standards, and that's fine.

In my experience revenge can be both deserved and sweet.

I am actively taking part in trying to defend the victim. The LOLs and HAHAs are directed at your attitude, not the situation, because i find the defence of gossip and lies laughable.

I am defending the victims....a potential father and an unborn child. And unsubstituted facts are not necessarily lies......no matter how many times a no-mark on a website states they are.

Hope that clears that up for you.

As mud.....You are allowed to take the side of the female and ascribe "truth" to something that you don't know the facts to.....and I can take the father and child's side and they have to be ascribed as lies.

[Hatchett]

Hi Errata,

I completely agree with you. I find the whole business of this distasteful from start to finish. The dating of teenagers by mature men is a serious responsibility because of all of the implications of that, and of course the vulnerability.

And then to cap it all to put it in the public arena, I think is very very mean spirited, and aimed and calculated to be hurtful through public condemnation of the teenager who has lost her child.

For anyone to do this is to my mind is very upsetting, but for a supposedly mature man to do it to a teenager that they at one time vowed love for is really distasteful.

Best wishes.

[Errata]

Hi Errata,

I completely agree with you. I find the whole business of this distasteful from start to finish. The dating of teenagers by mature men is a serious responsibility because of all of the implications of that, and of course the vulnerability.

And then to cap it all to put it in the public arena, I think is very very mean spirited, and aimed and calculated to be hurtful through public condemnation of the teenager who has lost her child.

For anyone to do this is to my mind is very upsetting, but for a supposedly mature man to do it to a teenager that they at one time vowed love for is really distasteful.

Best wishes.

I would say "where on earth were her parents?" but they were probably right where mine were... on their knees begging me not to get involved with someone 16 years older than myself. And having no choice but to accept my decision because I was legal.

On the other hand, evidently this whole refusing to marry her thing happened at a church camp out, so where was the MINISTER in all this, and why didn't he pull the guy aside at some point and say "it may be legal, but this is not okay, it makes you less of a man, and it makes you less of a christian." Cause when my ex tried to charm my rabbi, my rabbi looked him square in the eye and said " I am twice your age, and I have no respect for grown men who try and regain control in their lives by dating and manipulating teenagers. Get out of my synagogue, you are not welcome here."

Of course my rabbi was awesome. Could have cheerfully killed him for saying that, but he wasn't wrong. And he knew I wouldn't be back for awhile after saying it. He sent me a note saying that his ministerial duty was to call people on their bullshit, but he knew that because of what he said that I would now be terrified of losing my boyfriend. And to just remember "that people who love you do not rule you through fear. The day you realize that, I will be here to listen to you hate yourself for exactly 5 minutes, and then start the process of learning from past actions"

The worst part was my rabbi died like, three months before I got it. But he left a note for the new rabbi to give to me when I came back that said "You are an idiot for thinking you are unworthy of unconditional love. Stop it. P.S. Promise yourself you will stop dating shmucks. Your sister will hold any interventions she deems necessary."

And if your sister has never thrown you a schmuck intervention, well, you just don't know what you are missing. At least there was cake.

[Hatchett]

Hi Errata,

Your Rabbi sounds like a very good man. Sometimes it takes the worse turn of events to realise the goodness and love all around you, despite the fact that you perhaps cannot see it or welcome it at the time.

Who knows something like that could have happened at the time with this teenager, and that made her make the decision.

Best wishes.

[babybird67]

Why are you taking it at face value? Why don't you take the man's claim that she had a abortion as the truth? What reason do you have to put faith in anything this woman says?

(see how this works?)

Because, Dave, in the moral univerise I inhabit, people are innocent until proven guilty. The MAN is accusing the WOMAN of something that he has no proof for. It's called giving the accused the benefit of the doubt. I am very sad to find there are people that don't espouse this important principle, but you are certainly one of them.

Also, it is HER body and what happened to HER body he is claiming to know about. She should know more about her body and her experiences than he does, no? Or am I allowed to claim things about your body if i wish to? And garner as much support simply because some people might stupidly take my side out of sexism?

And thirdly, there is motive. This guy was jilted. He was pissed off with her. He wanted, as you so eleoquently put it, 'revenge'. That is his motive. He has every reason to lie about the situation because his pride is hurt and he wants to hit out at her.

So there are my rational grounds for preferring to believe the woman. What good reasons do you have for believing a man who should have known better than to sleep with someone young enough to be his daughter in the first place (that little nugget of information should give you some indication as to his moral stature as it is).

I fully understand it was meaningless in fact thats why I said it....and it was not an attempt at insulting you it was an attempt to see how silly your "I'm worse than him" statement was.....I obviously failed.

Yep you failed because the two situations are not comparable. The man has done something morally reprehensible and you're supporting him ergo you're as bad as he is in my opinion. The woman has done nothing but mind her own business. One deserves insulting, the other doesn't. I wonder why you don't understand these simple distinctions.

In my experience revenge can be both deserved and sweet.

Explain to me why revenge in this case was justified? What was it for? How can a man take revenge on a woman who has miscarried his baby? Or perhaps she deserved it for having the nerve to dump him. Oh God bless the God complex eh?

Revenge is petty, it is chidlish and it is immoral. You're entitled to enjoy it if you have a brain that enjoys that sort of thing.

I am defending the victims....a potential father and an unborn child. And unsubstituted facts are not necessarily lies......no matter how many times a no-mark on a website states they are.

Victims are people who are subject to the intended harmful actions of others. How is a child who is miscarried a victim of the mother? Are you now suggesting women are responsible for their own miscarriages? Can your tiny brain not comprehend the fact that miscarriages are acts of nature and NOT in the control of the woman? In this case, the potential mother was not only the 'victim' of the miscarriage, but of the idiotic potential -father's lies and slander about her.

I don't understand the phrase 'unsubstituted facts'. Are these facts that aren't allowed to go off after 6o minutes of play on a thread for a rest and a shower?

You seem to be missing the point here completely. ONE person has published information which is UNSUBSTANTIATED on a billboard about another, innocent, person. THAT person is in the wrong. He doesn't know what happened to his ex's body, he should keep his mouth shut and his nose out, and leave the woman alone to get on with her life, not slander her to the world because he couldn't get his own way with her.

As mud.....You are allowed to take the side of the female and ascribe "truth" to something that you don't know the facts to.....and I can take the father and child's side and they have to be ascribed as lies.

I am taking the side of the victim, my dear. The person who knows what happened because it is her body it happened to. The person who isn't the mean spirited jilted loser trying to get his own back because he was dumped. There is no good reason to believe the man in this case. There is every good reason to believe the woman.

[Errata]

Well, it seems now that the man who put up the billboard has confessed that he doesn't know what happened, that she told him that she lost the baby, and said it was a miscarriage.

And that the billboard wasnt really aimed at her, but to spread awareness of father's rights. Despite putting it up in a town of 35,000 people and putting her first name on the billboard.

And Right to Life New Mexico, which a pack of more rabid and unreasonable dogs cannot be found, have pulled their sponsorship of the ad.

And his ex-girlfriend has now filed domestic violence charges against him, for which there has to be proof of harm or threat of harm.

Poor poor billboard guy, who's heart just sooo broken about not getting to be a daddy.

[babybird67]

that poor excuse for a man

should be charged with a crime and thrown into prison for what he has done. He's a despicable waste of space, as are the jokers who support his 'right' for revenge, to cause distress and upset to people already suffering the loss of a child.

He should be ashamed of himself.

Looks like those of us who chose to believe the woman have been vindicated doesn't it.

[DirectorDave]

Because, Dave, in the moral univerise I inhabit, people are innocent until proven guilty. The MAN is accusing the WOMAN of something that he has no proof for. It's called giving the accused the benefit of the doubt. I am very sad to find there are people that don't espouse this important principle, but you are certainly one of them.

This important "innocent until proven guilty" is not the way the law system works in all "western countries" but when it comes to a court of law I believe it is the way it should be. On more than one occasion on here you have said he should be "charged" and "jailled".....are you not forgetting something?

I'm not going to be involved in the judicial process in this case so I don't need evidence or proof of guilt....I can just go with my gut feeling.....if I was part of the jury I 'd go by evidence.

Also, it is HER body and what happened to HER body he is claiming to know about. She should know more about her body and her experiences than he does, no? Or am I allowed to claim things about your body if i wish to? And garner as much support simply because some people might stupidly take my side out of sexism?

No I agree woman should have the right to choose......I hate abortion and wish it did not happen....but I don't believe in forcing anyone to have a child who is incapable of having it. But I also believe any potential father should be involved in that decision......but ultimately it is the person who carries the child that should have the final decision.

And thirdly, there is motive. This guy was jilted. He was pissed off with her. He wanted, as you so eleoquently put it, 'revenge'. That is his motive. He has every reason to lie about the situation because his pride is hurt and he wants to hit out at her.

I totally agree.....but this is not a man v woman thing.....if this story was about a woman putting a billboard up with a picture of a happy family with the father blanked out and a title "This could have been my happy family if my husband had not had sex with our babysitter" I would admire this also as an original form of revenge.

So there are my rational grounds for preferring to believe the woman. What good reasons do you have for believing a man who should have known better than to sleep with someone young enough to be his daughter in the first place (that little nugget of information should give you some indication as to his moral stature as it is).

Perhaps.....but as I said above I'm not on any Jury.....so I can just go with my gut feeling. I have no doubt that this man genuinely believes that the woman aborted his child....he may be mistaken but as I said previously I doubt he would have went to all this trouble if he thought otherwise. If you think otherwise then fair enough....you are entitled to your opinion.

I also know many couples with a similar age gap....some the men are older some the woman are older.....I do not make a moral judgement on a couple based on the age gap.....if it is a good, compatible, loving relationship I have absolutely no issue about age, race, sex or anything else.

Yep you failed because the two situations are not comparable. The man has done something morally reprehensible and you're supporting him ergo you're as bad as he is in my opinion. The woman has done nothing but mind her own business. One deserves insulting, the other doesn't. I wonder why you don't understand these simple distinctions.

The idea that I am as "bad as him" because I admire his original and non-violent for of revenge is hyperbole nonsense. Just as much as you are asking why I believe the man you do not know this woman is telling the truth......because none of us know all the facts in this case I am entitled to my opinion....just as much as you are. So it's nothing about "simple distinctions".

Revenge is petty, it is chidlish and it is immoral. You're entitled to enjoy it if you have a brain that enjoys that sort of thing.

I don't buy that revenge is childish and immoral sorry.....some are sure...but I do not think Osama Bin Laden's execution was "childish" or "immoral" he got his totties and he deserved it.

Even when I have been the victim of revenge....I can still take a step back and admire the ingenuity if it has been cleverly done.

Victims are people who are subject to the intended harmful actions of others. How is a child who is miscarried a victim of the mother? Are you now suggesting women are responsible for their own miscarriages? Can your tiny brain not comprehend the fact that miscarriages are acts of nature and NOT in the control of the woman? In this case, the potential mother was not only the 'victim' of the miscarriage, but of the idiotic potential -father's lies and slander about her.

Nah see you can't do that......If I don't buy the fact it was a miscarriage and if it comes out definitively that it was I will change my position on who is a victim. But I'd still have a cheeky wee appreciation of the "Billboard revenge idea".

You seem to be missing the point here completely. ONE person has published information which is UNSUBSTANTIATED on a billboard about another, innocent, person. THAT person is in the wrong. He doesn't know what happened to his ex's body, he should keep his mouth shut and his nose out, and leave the woman alone to get on with her life, not slander her to the world because he couldn't get his own way with her.

I'm not.....you just are not getting mine. I really don't care about the individuals involved in this case.....I don't know them, I don't know all the facts....so I just take the scenario in itself.

"a man who's ex had an abortion without consulting him gets his revenge by billboard."

That is how I was presented with this case and my initial post was based on that asumption....So forget this specific case.....if the above happened I would still admire the billboard idea.

I am taking the side of the victim, my dear. The person who knows what happened because it is her body it happened to. The person who isn't the mean spirited jilted loser trying to get his own back because he was dumped. There is no good reason to believe the man in this case. There is every good reason to believe the woman.

Well whatever.....like I said I was not focusing on the individuals or the specifics of the case.....just that I thought the "revenge" was quite original. If it turns out and this was a miscarriage my sympathies would be with the woman and I would accept the man was out of order.....but I could still appreciate the originality of revenge by billboard.