SlutWalks

[Sister Hyde]

So do tell me PRECISELY then how someone can dress to avoid being raped?

I guess that would be a bee suit and a pair of knee-high army boots without zipers, oh and an old man over-all under, that should scare their motivation away....

[Zodiac]

I guess that would be a bee suit and a pair of knee-high army boots without zipers, oh and an old man over-all under, that should scare their motivation away....

Perhaps we should all cover up completely... and take to wearing the Burka!!! No, damn it, that wouldn't work either because many of the same guys who tell you that you should not "go out" dressed a certain way are among the very first to point out how abhorrent it is that in radical Islam the menfolk actually think that they have the right to tell woman what they should and should not wear!!!

Best wishes,
Zodiac.

[DirectorDave]

Aww isn't it cute. Both the sexist men are attempting to make me out to be some hysterical shrieking female because they are incapable of having a rational debate. How..typical.

I'm not making you out to be anything of the sort. I'm just trying to make you see that you are accusing me of saying things that I have never said.

Ah you weren't talking about rape. I see. Despite the fact that this topic is about rape and you said this: ""Does going out dressed provocatively make someone more likely to be a victim of crime? ""

Well it was a question, not a statement. I do not feel I could add anything to a debate on rape, but on the broader subject of assault I think I have some life experience of that.

Interesting. What crime precisely then were you talking about on thread regarding wardrobe and rape? Carjacking? There is even less of correlation between carjacking, burglary and hit and runs and wardrobe than there is about rape. So what crime precisely besides rape even warrants an attempt at correlation with wardrobe?

I was the victim of an attempted assault because of what I wore one night out.....I have already said that in this 'debate'. And while I would not say the incident I was involved in was as serious as rape I think their are some correlation because I was the victim of an assault for simply walking down the street dressed as "myself". While the assault was in no way provoked by me afterwards I did ask the question that if I had been in Jeans and a coat I might not have been targeted......however I do not think I did anything wrong and me wearing something different is no excuse for a couple of thugs attacking me.

Ah..so it's the calling attention to yourself, not the specific article of clothing, that makes you responsible for not preventing your own rape. So if a woman wears a top hat and tails to the beach thereby calling attention to herself, *then* is she responsible for her own rape because she failed to take precautions against it?

How many times Ally? I do not think anyone who is raped is responsible in anyway because of what they wear.....and please stop insinuating that I have said that when I have never done so.

I mean my goodness, women should not call attention to themselves. They should sit quietly and demurely and keep their eyes downcast so as not to let anyone be aware of their presence in the world.

Well I disagree with that statement, and to be honest I do not know any women that believe that is how they should act.

Because being provocative is just asking for it.

No it is not, as far as I can see you are the only one on this thread that has alluded to that.

You said, on a thread that is entirely about wardrobe and rape: "I see no problem in victims of crime being advised on how they could have taken preventative steps to avoid being victims the crime...."

So do tell me PRECISELY then how someone can dress to avoid being raped?

Well once you start answering a few of my questions I may take the time to answer yours. But he is a little titbit for you to fire into......the "preventitive steps" I was suggesting were not focus around clothing and was not focused on rape.

If someone who was attacked (And I said attacked not raped) is advised to "not walk home alone", "avoid certain streets at certain times of night" or "don't drink so much you are not in control" it does not mean because they failed to do those things they are in any way responsible.

But I have said all this in previous posts so if it didn't sink in then I doubt it is going to now.

[Ally]

[QUOTE=DirectorDave;178766]

I'm not making you out to be anything of the sort. I'm just trying to make you see that you are accusing me of saying things that I have never said.

Nah, just implied.

Well it was a question, not a statement. I do not feel I could add anything to a debate on rape, but on the broader subject of assault I think I have some life experience of that.

Ah, so you had nothing to add, but decided based on some random experience to blather on anyway. Understood.

I was the victim of an attempted assault because of what I wore one night out.....I have already said that in this 'debate'. And while I would not say the incident I was involved in was as serious as rape I think their are some correlation because I was the victim of an assault for simply walking down the street dressed as "myself"

.

Someone wanted to assault you for being yourself? Shocking.

How many times Ally? I do not think anyone who is raped is responsible in anyway because of what they wear.....and please stop insinuating that I have said that when I have never done so.

No you just implied that they could have prevented it by choosing to wear something different.

Well once you start answering a few of my questions I may take the time to answer yours.

You haven't asked any questions. But your refusal and dodge is noted. The only question you asked was answered. I can completely understand your refusal to answer the question, after all, there's no answer in which you wouldn't look like a dick.

But he is a little titbit for you to fire into......the "preventitive steps" I was suggesting were not focus around clothing and was not focused on rape.

Then it was really stupid to make a comment on a thread that is about a man telling women not to dress like sluts so as not to be raped. See people are going to assume that when the topic is a man saying women shouldn't dress like sluts so they won't be raped, and another man says there's nothing wrong with them being informed of preventive measures, people are going to rationally conclude that b followed a.

[Hatchett]

Hi All,

I think there is a difference between freedom of speech and freedom of behaviour. We are living in the 21st. Century. It is about time the old conformities were abandoned for the sexual straight jackets that they were.

On the issue of provocative dress, it is a fact that men look forward to summer because they want to see young women dressed in short skirts and shorts. I have heard many men say this, without meaning any offence to the women concerned.

To translate that into that women who wear shorts or short skirts are "gagging for it" is clearly ridiculous, and indeed is discriminatory. It happens but it is wrong.

My belief is this, that if a woman chose to wander around the streets naked then she should be inviolate from any comments about her preferences, and inviolate from any molestation or unwanted advances. In fact she should be admired for the body that she is allowing people to see, and her courage in doing so.

Best wishes.

[Robert]

If she tries to do that round where I live her plates are going to pick up several bits of chewing gum, not to mention the broken glass hazard, the spit on the pavements, the occasional bit of dog mess...

[DirectorDave]

[QUOTE=Ally;178770]

Nah, just implied.

Was it? I'm struggling to see where?
I did not even consider your gender.....but if I did where I come from Ally is usually a male name.

Ah, so you had nothing to add, but decided based on some random experience to blather on anyway. Understood.

I did have something to add on the broader subject of assult and I did. I explained the corelation but oviously you have to ignore that.

Someone wanted to assault you for being yourself? Shocking.

It was quite shocking yes.....and something no one should have to go through.

No you just implied that they could have prevented it by choosing to wear something different.

So you are fiunally admiting that I did not infact say that, well done.

You acused me of asserting blame to them.....something I have said over and over and over and over again that I do not agree with.

You haven't asked any questions. But your refusal and dodge is noted. The only question you asked was answered. I can completely understand your refusal to answer the question, after all, there's no answer in which you wouldn't look like a dick.

Ok your question was this...
You said, on a thread that is entirely about wardrobe and rape: "I see no problem in victims of crime being advised on how they could have taken preventative steps to avoid being victims the crime...."

"So do tell me PRECISELY then how someone can dress to avoid being raped? "

No, because. There is no clothes you can wear to prevent rape.

(Don't feel like a Dick, sorry!)

Then it was really stupid to make a comment on a thread that is about a man telling women not to dress like sluts so as not to be raped. See people are going to assume that when the topic is a man saying women shouldn't dress like sluts so they won't be raped, and another man says there's nothing wrong with them being informed of preventive measures, people are going to rationally conclude that b followed a.

"I see no problem in victims of crime being advised on how they could have taken preventative steps to avoid being victims the crime....and I don't see why doing this is seen as shifting blame from the perpetrator to the victim."

That is what I said,...I never mentioned the word Slut (never a word I use), I never used the word "rape" I never even mentioned men or woman.

You seem to be happy to grab any stick going as long as it the wrong end. You have not been rational with me and I think you know that.

I shall continue to advise the women in my life about being safe when they go out......sorry Ally you have not convinced me that by doing so I am making them responsible for any trouble they might find themselves in.

I don't know why I'm going to tell you this? Just something my dad said to me that stuck with me....

"When you have a son you have one idiot to worry about.......when you have a daughter you have thousands."

I'm sure you will be able to find something in there Ally to claim I am somehow making victims responsible for their own crime, but it will never be true of me.

[Zodiac]

If she tries to do that round where I live her plates are going to pick up several bits of chewing gum, not to mention the broken glass hazard, the spit on the pavements, the occasional bit of dog mess...

Hi Robert,

Ok, a fair point well made!!! So perhaps some kind of footwear would be in order, flatties or heels??? you foot fetishist you!!!

Best wishes,
Zodiac.

[Robert]

Hi Zodiac

Well, I dare say they'll agonize on which kind of shoes to wear, but the fact is, no one's going to be looking at their feet.

[Errata]

1 in 4 women will be sexually assaulted in their lifetimes.
1 in 5 women will be sexually assaulted before the age of 18.
1 in 6 men will be sexually assaulted in their lifetimes.
The statistics for men under the age of 18 is from secondary or tertiary data, so unknown.

Clearly anyone who says that it is because of how women dress is not only wrong, and idiot, and a misogynist, they are also exceedingly sick. Because clearly then their argument encompasses 6 year old girls raped by a family member, and surely we cannot accuse a six year old of either dressing herself, or "asking for it"

A 25 year old woman in public wearing a miniskirt and a bra top is safer than a 50 year old woman jogging alone in the park at night. Rapists are opportunists. They don't give a crap what you are wearing, they don't care how old you are, they don't care if you are attractive or not. It is not about sexual stimulation. It is about power. Their stimulation does not come from your appearance, but from your struggling, your begging, and their ability to inflict whatever damage they wish on you. Rapists do not prowl college campuses because they have a preference for 20 year old girls, they do it because women on campus have a false sense of security and safety. College girls stagger home after parties drunk and in the dark. They make easy prey.

Date rapists have a raging sense of entitlement. They bought you dinner, so that means they bought you. They also don't care what you are wearing. They believe that they are owed sex, and whatever you are wearing, they will get rid of it.

The irony is that if a rapist cannot rape you because your clothing has foiled them somehow, they will beat the crap out of you. Often enough they will beat you to death.

There was a rash of that happening in Texas in the early nineties I think. They were trying to get the message out to women to not fight back, because they were being killed. Unfortunately a congressman said into a microphone that these women "should lie back and enjoy the ride". He was honestly trying to help, but the way he was raised, and the way he spoke as a wealthy good ole boy from Texas gave him the worst possible turn of phrase imaginable. It's an old joke among married men, how they don't need their wives to do anything except "lie back and enjoy the ride". What an awful phrase.

As a society we have gotten better about "No means No" amongst peers. We still aren't perfect, but even in the last 20 years date rape has gone down. But there is nothing, not a gun, not mace, not a burka, not a black belt in judo that can protect you from the guy lurking in the bushes. I have a friend who jogs with a sword strapped on her back. She thinks that anyone who sees her as a potential victim will decide she is too much trouble. Maybe she's right. But it is a big sword (it's the Braveheart claymore if you're interested) and I can't take one into a bar or restaurant.

Outside of being aware of your surroundings, the only way to protect yourself is to know that if it happens, and you live through it, that it will be okay one day. Maybe not for a long time, but one day. And testifying if it happens to you. It can't protect you, but it can protect the next woman. And the woman before you could have protected you. We can't be selfish anymore. A quarter of the female population has been attacked. Clearly only we can protect each other. I'm sure the cops would love to help us, but we have to testify. It's our weakest link right now.

[DirectorDave]

Unfortunately a congressman said into a microphone that these women "should lie back and enjoy the ride". He was honestly trying to help, but the way he was raised, and the way he spoke as a wealthy good ole boy from Texas gave him the worst possible turn of phrase imaginable. It's an old joke among married men, how they don't need their wives to do anything except "lie back and enjoy the ride". What an awful phrase.

There is a similar saying this side of the Pond....."Lie back and think of England."

And some of the statistics you quote are frightening.

(it's the Braveheart claymore if you're interested) and I can't take one into a bar or restaurant.

I wish my wearing of Highland gear had given me some security against attack......unfortunatly in my case a Kilt and Sporran seemed to cause the trouble.

[Ally]

You know Dave, I am not sure if you are actually dim or being willfully obtuse, but I am going to pull out the small words, speak reallly slowly and then leave it at that.

this is not a thread, about women walking in unsafe neighborhoods at night. This is not a thread, about women drinking themselves into comas.

This is a thread, where a man told women not to dress like sluts to avoid being raped.

Your response was that there was nothing wrong with that as it was telling women how to prevent crime.

Now I realize you are trying to frantically backtrack here and I'll leave you to it because frankly you aren't really worth the effort. I just realized on another thread that you are defending a man who took out a billboard claiming his girlfriend had an abortion, even though the man has admitted he has no idea whether she actually had an abortion or not. You have stated he has the right to get his revenge, even though he has admitted, flat out he doesn't know whether she had an abortion. You endorse the possible slander of a woman, holding her up for contempt and finger pointing by the loonies and you admire his "original" means of revenge.

You really aren't the kind who can be reasoned with, nor are you the type I want to speak with further about women's issues, since clearly, you live in a completely different universe than rational men.

[DirectorDave]

You know Dave, I am not sure if you are actually dim or being willfully obtuse, but I am going to pull out the small words, speak reallly slowly and then leave it at that.

Pull out all the small words you like.....it still not going to make any of the things you have accused me of saying true.

this is not a thread, about women walking in unsafe neighborhoods at night. This is not a thread, about women drinking themselves into comas.

Whatever it is was about at the start.....it has been morphed into something else because you can't accept that I am not apportioning blame of rape to women because of what they wear.

This is a thread, where a man told women not to dress like sluts to avoid being raped.

Your response was that there was nothing wrong with that as it was telling women how to prevent crime.

My response was to criticise the policemen....but that does not fit the profile you have assigned me so obviously you have to ignore that.

Now I realize you are trying to frantically backtrack here and I'll leave you to it because frankly you aren't really worth the effort. I just realized on another thread that you are defending a man who took out a billboard claiming his girlfriend had an abortion, even though the man has admitted he has no idea whether she actually had an abortion or not. You have stated he has the right to get his revenge, even though he has admitted, flat out he doesn't know whether she had an abortion. You endorse the possible slander of a woman, holding her up for contempt and finger pointing by the loonies and you admire his "original" means of revenge.

Backtracking from where? You are the one who needs to row back a bit here...still not chuffed at your sexism allegation and the fact you can't retract it says a fair bit about you.

this is not a thread, about women having abortions or miscarriages.
this is not a thread, about men putting up billboards.

You want to discuss that? go to the appropriate thread....as being off-topic is the only thing you have left to accuse me of.

You really aren't the kind who can be reasoned with, nor are you the type I want to speak with further about women's issues, since clearly, you live in a completely different universe than rational men.

I was not talking about womans issues I was talking about crime in general....and I was talking about victims (incorrectly in my view as I have stated MULTIPLE TIMES) being blamed and I think you know that now. How can you expect me to reason with you when you (seemingly deliberately) misconstruing my posts?

I have actually just realised who you are......they say you should never meet your heroes? Well add to that never talk to them on a messageboard.

I'm sorry you are so self absorbed that you cant admit your error or retract the ludercrous acusations you have made.

[Errata]

And some of the statistics you quote are frightening.

They are the statistics for the US that came out of a 1995 (I think) study, it was released a year or so later. I got my hands on it working at a rape crisis center. The shock generated from these numbers was the amount of men who had reported being sexually assaulted, since people still considered the assault of men and boys to be exceedingly rare. The shock for me was, that 1 in 4 women were reporting being assaulted in an anonymous study, but the crisis center numbers showed that maybe 1 in 20 women were reporting assaults to law enforcement, and all of those reported were stranger rapes.

And the reporting has gotten better in the past 15 years. But it isn't good enough. If that ass of a cop knew the real numbers, he would know that it couldn't possibly be related to clothing.

[DirectorDave]

They are the statistics for the US that came out of a 1995 (I think) study, it was released a year or so later. I got my hands on it working at a rape crisis center. The shock generated from these numbers was the amount of men who had reported being sexually assaulted, since people still considered the assault of men and boys to be exceedingly rare. The shock for me was, that 1 in 4 women were reporting being assaulted in an anonymous study, but the crisis center numbers showed that maybe 1 in 20 women were reporting assaults to law enforcement, and all of those reported were stranger rapes.

And the reporting has gotten better in the past 15 years. But it isn't good enough. If that ass of a cop knew the real numbers, he would know that it couldn't possibly be related to clothing.

Guess it just adds flesh to the theory that most rapes are the result of someone the victim knows......I'm am sure I have heard a similar fact about murder.

Perhaps the old adage of the most frighting monster is not the ones in the shadows or dark alleyways, but when you realise the monster was in the room all with you all along.

The "lie back and enjoy the ride" thing just seems nasty.....and I have to admit I'm struggling with the concept of not fighting back, but as you said for any victim staying alive must be their objective.

We in the UK had a very distressing case of child abuse at a day-care centre where the method and perpetrator was so unexpected it opened up a whole new arena of sexual asault.....and a realisation (like your shock at the rapes on males) that there was a whole range of perpetrators and victims that was not only not recorded but never even considered.

As a man I can't even imagine how sexual gratification could be achieved by non consensual sex and while I accept it's all about control I find it difficult why anyone would want to control someone in that way.