No limits to immigration

[Robert]

Errata, correct me if I'm wrong : was it not you who said that you would always prefer sitting next to an African Moslem to sitting next to a white Christian?

[Robert]

I would like to point out that, unlike Bob with his xenophobic peregrinations and his racist overseas charity work, I have never been abroad in my life and am therefore a cosmopolitan internationalist with unimpeachable liberal credentials.

[Ally]

Why precisely is it that if you are white and have a strong national pride and a desire to see your country remain as it as historically been, you are a xenophobe?

I am not saying it's not futile. I mean look at the Native Americans, they wanted their country free from the invading white scourge and their horrifying culture, and that didn't turn out too well for them. And now we look back at them and go "poor dears they were just fighting for their way of life" but if you are a white person now who wants your country to remain as it has been for all your own life...xenophobic.

Everyone is xenophobic to some degree or another. Very few people are out there embracing and adopting different cultures left and right. You try a couple of Korean dishes and consider yourselves very broadminded, but you aren't moving to north korea and praising the mighty leader. Rarely do differing cultures blend harmoniously. When cultures "blend" harmoniously, it is usually because they have adopted one predominant culture, there's no full blending. It's very safe to spout lip service of inclusion of the cultures of others but the phrase "culture clash" exists for a reason. Of course embrace anglo-saxon culture and you are a racist and a bigot.

[Roy Corduroy]

Good morning Ally,

Why precisely is it that if you are white and have a strong national pride and a desire to see your country remain as it as historically been, you are a xenophobe?

It's all part and parcel of the politically correct worldview. The same reason you'll never hear an athiest put down Desmond Tutu. That's a Nono.

Roy

[Ally]

Uhm...what? I am an atheist and I have no idea what atheism and Tutu have as far as relevance goes. As far as I know, Tutu has not done anything that would warrant criticism by any category of people, Christian, muslim or atheist so I am not entirely sure what parallel is being drawn?

What precisely has Tutu done to warrant criticism that an atheist would refrain from criticizing due to political correctness?

[Limehouse]

Why precisely is it that if you are white and have a strong national pride and a desire to see your country remain as it as historically been, you are a xenophobe?

I am not saying it's not futile. I mean look at the Native Americans, they wanted their country free from the invading white scourge and their horrifying culture, and that didn't turn out too well for them. And now we look back at them and go "poor dears they were just fighting for their way of life" but if you are a white person now who wants your country to remain as it has been for all your own life...xenophobic.

Everyone is xenophobic to some degree or another. Very few people are out there embracing and adopting different cultures left and right. You try a couple of Korean dishes and consider yourselves very broadminded, but you aren't moving to north korea and praising the mighty leader. Rarely do differing cultures blend harmoniously. When cultures "blend" harmoniously, it is usually because they have adopted one predominant culture, there's no full blending. It's very safe to spout lip service of inclusion of the cultures of others but the phrase "culture clash" exists for a reason. Of course embrace anglo-saxon culture and you are a racist and a bigot.

Some interesting points there Ally.

Of course - the anglo-saxon culture is itself as hybrid that gradually absorbed elements from several cultures and dapoted elements from several more and slowly evolved - into what?

Very future cultures are static. Most gradually take on traditions and customs from 'invading or immigrant cultures' (for want of a better term) and they evolve slowly into what appears to be a dominant culture.

Trying to preserve a culture is very difficult. For a start - look how technology has changed many different cultures in a very short space of time. I grew up in a home with no landline telephone and no television. Consequently face to face conversation was very much part of my 'culture'. I find it very difficult to tolerate people who want to text or fiddle with their phones when I am trying to have a conversation with them. I get frustratred by the minuscule attention span that is the norm in our culture today that has been caused by everything being so instant and fast moving. I would say that technology has changed 'the British way of life' (what ever that is) much more than immigrants have.

[Errata]

Errata, correct me if I'm wrong : was it not you who said that you would always prefer sitting next to an African Moslem to sitting next to a white Christian?

I did say that. And I meant it.

If you are asking because of what I said about my Dad, I did not pick up whatever issues my Dad has. I'm more like my Mom and her "life is too short to stick with what you know" attitude.

And if you are asking me because of the varying definitions of xenophobia, then I can tell you I am not afraid of white Christians. I am not uncomfortable around them. I'm in fact marrying one. I'm just not interested anymore. My entire life I have been completely surrounded by them, and at this point in my life, after 33 years of oatmeal, why on earth would I pass up a chance at a burrito, or a gyro, or misir, or kibbe?

Bob, if it makes any difference, I do not think you are xenophobic. I think you have an overly limited view of "native", and I think you are more prepared to seize on the bad parts of immigration than the good. In some ways I think Americans are prepared to be more accepting in that area (though clearly they can choose not to be) because our entire national identity is based on a "Melting pot" culture. Britain is ex-empire, with a national identity still far more used to sending it's citizens to other countries than the other way around.

What the west thinks of as Chinese food (chow mein, kung pow chicken, etc) is not in fact Chinese food. It's Chinese-American food. Tacos aren't Mexican food, they are Tex-Mex food. We celebrate Cinqo De Mayo, and St. Patrick's Day, and Halloween. We owe our independence to a French general, our industrial boom to two Irishmen and two Germans, our health to two Jews, our space program to a German Nazi, our music to the African Americans, and every time I hear someone talking about how immigrants are taking over our culture I want to send them back to school.

[Roy Corduroy]

I am an atheist...

What precisely has Tutu done to warrant criticism that an atheist would refrain from criticizing due to political correctness?

He believes in God.

Roy

[Ally]

He believes in God.

And? I don't know of any atheists who criticize people simply for believing in a god. They criticize people for attempting to shove their god down other people's throats or attempting to enforce their belief system over the rights of others. I don't believe Tutu has advocated enforcing his religious beliefs on anyone else.

[Ally]

Very future cultures are static. Most gradually take on traditions and customs from 'invading or immigrant cultures' (for want of a better term) and they evolve slowly into what appears to be a dominant culture.

And yet, if you move to a new country that has a different culture than you, it is incumbent upon you to learn the culture of your new country, not attempt to enforce your own. I don't get to move to France and demand they learn English or any other place with ideas and notions contrary to my own and get to decide to ignore their laws and their customs in favor what I believe are my ways which are better. I don't get to go to England and drive on the right side of the road, I don't get to go to Saudi Arabia and eschew the head scarf. If I do that, I am viewed as an arrogant upstart American enforcing my opinions and value system on the rest of the world.

But for some reason, every one feels perfectly free to come here and refuse to assimilate to our ways, and that's quite alright, no need to even learn the language. Quite the double standard.

[Robert]

Errata, you're marrying one but you won't sit next to one?

I just hope your wedding night goes OK.

[Limehouse]

And yet, if you move to a new country that has a different culture than you, it is incumbent upon you to learn the culture of your new country, not attempt to enforce your own. I don't get to move to France and demand they learn English or any other place with ideas and notions contrary to my own and get to decide to ignore their laws and their customs in favor what I believe are my ways which are better. I don't get to go to England and drive on the right side of the road, I don't get to go to Saudi Arabia and eschew the head scarf. If I do that, I am viewed as an arrogant upstart American enforcing my opinions and value system on the rest of the world.

But for some reason, every one feels perfectly free to come here and refuse to assimilate to our ways, and that's quite alright, no need to even learn the language. Quite the double standard.

How boring it would be if those coming to Britain from abroad became just like us! In any case - not all white British people live in the exact same way as each other. Two Brits can be as different culturally as an immigrant and a Brit.

When it comes to learning the language - most people DO want to learn English because by doing so they can travel more and manage the language in so many other countries such as America and Australia.

I don't think modern immigrants force their culture on the host country. Yes - they may stick to their own costumes and religion - but they don't force US to adopt it. We have several mosques in Peterborough but most of the people who worship in them are British. The mosques were not purpose built until several generations of the immigrant community had lived here. The mosques have not replaced churches. The Muslims do not stop Christians from going to church. And I wonder how many people who complain about the 'British way of life' being erroded by immigration happily tuck into a 'hamburger' or a 'curry' or a 'chinese' or 'pizza'?

Oh - and I could mention some of the American customs that have been imposed on us Brits in recent years such as trick and treating and high school proms (along with those horrifically tasteless stretch limos) which have not been the result of immigration but of the American influence on television and cinema!

[Ally]

How boring it would be if those coming to Britain from abroad became just like us!

Really? Then what happens to all the people who want to go see Britain and the British way of life? Why is your culture not worthy of being seen as exciting and something that should be modified and adapt to the infux of alternate cultures? If you want to see Indian culture, where do you go? If you want to see Chinese culture, where do you go? Where do we go to see British or American culture once we've all "blended" together? Or is it only the white cultures that aren't worth preserving?

In any case - not all white British people live in the exact same way as each other. Two Brits can be as different culturally as an immigrant and a Brit.

Yes, and two Chinese can be different. Shoot there are even different chinese languages in one country. But we are talking about cultural identity, language and practices.

I don't think modern immigrants force their culture on the host country. Yes - they may stick to their own costumes and religion - but they don't force US to adopt it.

You obviously haven't been to Miami lately. Nothing pisses me off more than the fact that English isn't spoken in the vast majority of stores I go to shop at in my home town. I get irate when I drive up to Burger King and the person automatically tries to take my order in Spanish.

Oh - and I could mention some of the American customs that have been imposed on us Brits in recent years such as trick and treating and high school proms (along with those horrifically tasteless stretch limos) which have not been the result of immigration but of the American influence on television and cinema!

But you won't mention them will you, because you embrace cultural adaptation from other countries.

[Limehouse]

When people come to Britain they want to see Buckingham Palace with guards in red uniforms marching up and down and they go and see it and they think they've seen the British way of life. They go to the Tower of London and god-knows-why but they go to Madame Tussauds and they think they've seen the British way of life. If they venture out of London they go to the castles and palaces and maybe the historic cities such as York and they sit in little tea rooms and they think they've seen the British way of life. NOne of these experiences have ever been moulded or adapted to suit immigrants. If there IS a British way of life then I've just described it.

However - most of us Brits just live in ordinary little houses in ordinary little streets and we have ordinary jobs and we live from Christmas to Easter and from holiday to holiday and in reality we rub alongside our neighbours who might be local but they might just as easily be Polish or Lithuanian or British Asians or perhaps Nigerians but whatever - they still say 'good morning' to me and they use the same shops and we wait at bus stops together and hardly even notice the differences between us. That IS the British way of life. It's the life my children have grown up with so to them it's as British as the drab little London street full of white Christians and Jews that I grew up in.

It's probably different in Miami - I've never ventured very far - not even out of Europe (well - I suppose the Canary Islands ARE geographically out of Europe - but that's as far as I've been) but although nearly a hundred languages are spoken in my small city most people are happy to speak in English in shops and restaurants and so on.

[Ally]

If you go to any large city in America, there are pockets that are no longer "american". They have been taken over by populations from other countries and their language and culture is the one spoken and lived there.

Miami contains predominant cuban culture and language but even there, there is a section called Little Haiti that is entirely Haitian in language.

Every city has it's Mexico town, china town, and etc.

I am not particularly xenophobic, my grandfather was Cuban, floated over in his late teens, and I jones --JONES-- to go home and get some black beans and some ropa vieja and plantains maduros but food is one thing, and language and attitude is another. I have no problems with a Cuban in cuba eating a hamburger and I have no problem with an american eating black beans, some blending is absolutely great and I'd probably die without a steady infusion of pho or baingan bharta, but I do not understand the point of moving to a completely new country if you don't plan to adopt the traditions, language and culture of that country. I am not opposed to immigration, I am opposed to the idea that immigrants don't have to adapt to the culture, practices and policies of the country they move to. And the vast don't blend, they settle in enclaves with "their kind".

If you want to stick with the familiar, stick with the familiar and stay home.