No limits to immigration

[Robert]

Babybird, you say you're British because you were born here. Then you say an African can come here and "become" British.

[babybird67]

Babybird, you say you're British because you were born here. Then you say an African can come here and "become" British.

Yes Robert. Nationality is British, race is something else.

That's the distinction i was trying to make (perhaps failing).

British after all isn't a race either.

[Robert]

So you're saying your nationality is where you were born, but can also be acquired in a place where you weren't born?

In my French example, I wasn't talking about a French race. I was saying that you might be born in this country, but raised in France, and come to think of yourself as being French. The bit about the French parents was thrown in to make sure that you were raised speaking French, adopting French customs etc. So you come to think of yourself as French and everyone around you thinks of you as French. So you're French, not British.

[babybird67]

So you're saying your nationality is where you were born, but can also be acquired in a place where you weren't born?

In my French example, I wasn't talking about a French race. I was saying that you might be born in this country, but raised in France, and come to think of yourself as being French. The bit about the French parents was thrown in to make sure that you were raised speaking French, adopting French customs etc. So you come to think of yourself as French and everyone around you thinks of you as French. So you're French, not British.

Yes I understand but that's nationality, not race. Whether i considered myself French or British, I couldn't change the fact that I was white caucasian.

I worked with a guy once who went on and on about being from North Wales. It was like a giant chip on his shoulder. He kept saying how people always commented on his different accent (which sounded the same to me, but then I am English and maybe thought there was something wrong with my ears). Every conversation would have some element of how different he was because he was from North Wales etc etc. One day I finally asked him, where were you born?

He said Swansea.

Now my grasp of geography isn't that good, but as I live and work in Swansea I think it's even possible for me to know that it's located very firmly in south Wales.

He identified himself with north Wales because that's where his family came from. He was still born in south Wales.

That's just a little anecdote germane to the conversation I thought some might enjoy!

I think race, for me, is based on biological determinants. Things that can't be changed by culture or belief. Nationality/religion can be adopted/altered/chosen. Place of birth/race cannot. So you can have Jews and Sikhs of different nationalities and races.

I've forgotten what the point of this discussion was now as it's getting really late and I have to go have a bath and go to bed.

Night.

[Robert]

Hi Babybird

Well, I'd rather not talk about race at all. Nationhood is the key for me. Beware of talking about "choosing" a nationality or a religion. One doesn't just choose these things, like putting on a hat. I can't say, "I think I'll be Chinese this year, and a Jew. So in 2011 I'll be a Chinese Jew. Next year I'll be a Brazilian Zoroastrian."

[Errata]

Hi Babybird

Well, I'd rather not talk about race at all. Nationhood is the key for me. Beware of talking about "choosing" a nationality or a religion. One doesn't just choose these things, like putting on a hat. I can't say, "I think I'll be Chinese this year, and a Jew. So in 2011 I'll be a Chinese Jew. Next year I'll be a Brazilian Zoroastrian."

actually people choose these things all the time. But there are consequences to the choice. I have a friend who was born in Iran and became a US citizen when she was 4. Because she is an American citizen, none of her family could go back to Iran. Not ever. She started sneaking in a few years ago for humanitarian reasons, and so far so good, but everyone knows what will happen if she gets caught.

Really in the grand scheme of things you are who you say you are until proven otherwise. If you say you're an American, you're an American. But then you have to act like it an pay taxes and be subjected to our judicial system. If you say you're a Jew you're a Jew, as long as you convert, and get circumcised. China might have you. They wouldn't have me as they don't particularly accept Americans for citizenship.As long as you BE a Chinese Jew or a Brazilian Zoroastrian, that's fine. I mean, I could call myself an Italian Baptist, but it ain't never gonna happen so why lie about it?

Me, I'm a Scottish Jew. I claim my ancestry as Scottish, not my nationality. The fact is I'm only half of each, and not the same half. Technically I am all Jewish because my mother converted before she married, but I only have 50% Jewish ancestry. My mother's family is Catholic. So I picked my mother's ancestral country and my father's ancestral religion. It seems fair. I certainly am not a Catholic, so that one was easy. I never liked my father's mother, and I'm not going to claim her family at all, so Poland is out. My father's father was Austrian, which I hear is lovely, but I have never been and it doesn't really suit my personality. It's a bit too precious. Me, I'm kind of an old school punk chick who argues for fun, and rolls with the boys when it comes to entertainment and fighting. So Scottish suits me nicely. It's not a lie, just not the whole story. But it's enough of the story to give someone fair warning as to who I am.

[Stephen Thomas]

I thought we all originated from Africa in terms of DNA?

Indeed, and I believe that our DNA is 95% the same as the chimpanzee.

(though I may be a couple of percentage points out there)

[Robert]

Errata, I emphatically cannot choose to become Chinese. I could perhaps choose to work towards trying to be Chinese, but it's not a done deal.

Suppose I had spent years studying Chinese culture, was a fluent Chinese speaker, etc etc. I go to China. I get off the plane. I have my paperwork, my bit of paper from the Chinese government saying "This man is Chinese." On my first day I say to a Chinese man, "Gee, I'm Chinese now." He looks at me and says "You're not Chinese." I show him my piece of paper. He says, "You may have Chinese citizenship but you're not Chinese." Well, if the rest of the Chinese agreed with him, then I'm afraid that I'm not Chinese. Why should my one opinion outweigh a billion contrary opinions? Maybe if I lived in China for 30 or 40 years, I might start to be accepted as Chinese, but it might not happen, and I would be arrogant to demand it.

As for becoming a Jew, or Christian, or a member of some other religion : how precisely can I decide to believe in god?

Nations and religions are not clubs, that one can join and leave according to fancy.

[Robert]

Stephen. Chimpanzees? Bit of a Johnny-come-lately, aren't you? I go all the way back to sea cucumbers.

[Errata]

Errata, I emphatically cannot choose to become Chinese. I could perhaps choose to work towards trying to be Chinese, but it's not a done deal.

Suppose I had spent years studying Chinese culture, was a fluent Chinese speaker, etc etc. I go to China. I get off the plane. I have my paperwork, my bit of paper from the Chinese government saying "This man is Chinese." On my first day I say to a Chinese man, "Gee, I'm Chinese now." He looks at me and says "You're not Chinese." I show him my piece of paper. He says, "You may have Chinese citizenship but you're not Chinese." Well, if the rest of the Chinese agreed with him, then I'm afraid that I'm not Chinese. Why should my one opinion outweigh a billion contrary opinions? Maybe if I lived in China for 30 or 40 years, I might start to be accepted as Chinese, but it might not happen, and I would be arrogant to demand it.

As for becoming a Jew, or Christian, or a member of some other religion : how precisely can I decide to believe in god?

Nations and religions are not clubs, that one can join and leave according to fancy.

Hahaha. I never said it would be easy to be a Chinese Jew, but I believe in you. You can be whatever you set your mind to.

But self-identification is one of the things that set us apart from the sea cucumbers. That and vomiting our internal organs out onto other sea creatures (which is the most hardcore self defense known to man). We in fact get to pick what we want to be. It may take hard work and a whole lot of time, or simply surrounding ourselves with people who just believe us, but we can do it. It shouldn't be a whim or a passing fancy, because likely you aren't going to achieve your goal before the fancy passes. But if you want to tell me you are Chinese, I will believe you. I mean, you would have to be able to use chopsticks and everything, but it costs me nothing to let you be what you want to be. I mean, people say they are musicians all the time and fully 90% of those people are awful. It doesn't mean they aren't musicians. Just that they aren't good ones.

I would think that people do decide to believe in a god every so often. I can't say for sure, but people decide not to believe in one all the time, and I imagine it works rather the same way, but you know, in reverse. I tried not to, it didn't stick. Not that I pray or anything. Cause you know, anyone who gives a 5 year old Bipolar disorder can kiss my a$$, but you can't not believe in something you hate. I tried to not believe in my Grandmother and Mobile Alabama too, so you'd think I would have learned that lesson.

But I don't think nations and religions are clubs. I think they are the foundation of the human soul. But bad fits happen, and if your nation and/or religion is a bad fit, then you get to change it. Not without consequence, and not without effort, but if I do not want to be damned to an American eternity then I'm gonna pick up and find a real home. A good fit.

Although ironically when I was tooling around Europe in my well-spent youth, everyone thought I was German. Except in Germany, where they thought I was French. No idea why. Especially as I speak no German.

[Limehouse]

Hey, dougie,

Nice to see you back. Or are you his Welsh twin?

Do you know Stephen - I've been thinking that Glyn is dougie by another name for several weeks now.

It's the laughing emoticons and pointless diatribe that give him away I think.

[Bob Hinton]

True but...........

But this is not always the case. My husband is a Licensed London Cabbie. Under the law he is exempt from the seat belt law when he is plying for hire. Most other people have to wear a seatbelt when driving but he does not - when he is plying for hire. So - presuming you are not a London Cabbie too - the law is different for him and you.

That exemption is given to him because of the job he does, in exactly the same way emergency vehicles can go through red lights and under certain circumstances exceed the speed limit. The same exemptions also apply to members of the armed forces who are not required to have a license to carry firearms. However that is a job based exemption - not an exemption based on race or religion.

I cannot for example ask that special exemptions be made for me because I am a Christian.

[Bob Hinton]

The reason why

Just as a matter of interest, Limehouse, what's the thinking behind this?

Having a seatbelt on surely wouldn't restrict his plying for hire would it?

There are two main reasons for this. One that because cabbies are in and out of their cabs so often it is unreasonable to expect them to wear a seatbelt, and the other is that it has been known for passengers to strangle the cabby by pulling on the seatbelt.

[TomTomKent]

As British law is historically based on Christian mandates it is more usual for other faiths to have to apply for exemptions than for christians to exempt themselves from the majority of laws created with their ethos in mind. Christians are not required to wear a turban or carry a Knife, so there is no need for an exemption. Religious schools and facilities can however be exempt from some employment rules based on their religious faith, declining to employ somebody on grounds a secular equivalent can not. Some branches of christianity can refuse to give blood samples based on their faith and so forth.

[cappuccina]

Glyn/Dougie....You did not answer my question...