No limits to immigration

[Derrick]

It is also unfair, untrue and unhelpful to conflate the issue of immigration with that of crime, when there is no evidence immigrants are more likely to have criminal tendencies than non-immigrants...in fact evidence of the opposite.

Hi Babybird

I totally agree

regards
Derrick

[TomTomKent]

Whilst I am, to a certain extent, bridging the gap between you and Bob, TomTomKent, understanding elements of both of your arguments... and actually enjoying the debate also, on this point I have to point out that at no time has race or colour been an issue with Bob. This is not about race, colour or creed, religion, or the way certain people wear their hair - this is about immigration, that is, people who were born in another country coming to live in the UK.

It is both unfair, untrue and unhelpful to conflate the issue of immigration with the issue of racism, and it serves only to obfuscate the issue and cheapen the term 'racist'. The slinging of that word and the fear of being labelled as such has led to the situation we are debating here - if we cannot have an open and honest discussion of immigration, then the 'problem', for such it is, will never be properly addressed.

Which was exactly why I made the point. I did not want anybody to think I was misrepresenting what Bob was saying because too often "immigrant" and "non-white" are treated as interchangable, and I was making the assumption he had not done this in his 40 year figure. This distinction also had to be made clear to ensure that people understood that the child of an immigrant arriving with in the 40 year period would themselves be considered a UK citizen.

[DrHopper]

My emphasis.

Are you sure about that?

His comment was, in fairness, about areas of predominantly Asian immigrants, naturally of a darker skin colour, creating problems for non-Asian people judged to be so based on the colour of their skin i.e non-whites discriminating against whites. This is based on several reports by both HM Government and various police forces in places like Burnley, Oldham and Halifax. There is no racism on Bob's part, he is reporting the facts as they are presented to him. Also, to be fair, this is a single example within a whole raft of examples that Bob keeps posting.

The issue of immigration needs to be kept separate from the issue of racism, except where it is deliberate and overt (i.e. BNP, NF, etc) and then it needs to be pointed out, rooted out, and ideally shown to be the fallacy it is.

You are correct in your comment about the conflation of immigration and crime. Bob is wrong to do this, as you and TTK have pointed out, although I would have to state that he is doing so to a lesser degree than you are both accusing him.

[babybird67]

You are correct in your comment about the conflation of immigration and crime. Bob is wrong to do this, as you and TTK have pointed out, although I would have to state that he is doing so to a lesser degree than you are both accusing him.

I disagree. This thread is about immigration. Bob is fixated on crime and its relation to immigration and is using anecdotal evidence to try to portray it as a widespread problem which the statistics do not support. To my knowledge he has not acknowledged the many benefits of immigration to our country. He is also using a lot of examples pertaining to illegal immigrants, which actually aren't relevant to a discussion of legal immigration.

[babybird67]

wow

Hi Babybird

I totally agree

regards
Derrick

that must be a first

Jen

[DrHopper]

I disagree. This thread is about immigration. Bob is fixated on crime and its relation to immigration and is using anecdotal evidence to try to portray it as a widespread problem which the statistics do not support. To my knowledge he has not acknowledged the many benefits of immigration to our country. He is also using a lot of examples pertaining to illegal immigrants, which actually aren't relevant to a discussion of legal immigration.

True, you have a valid point there. But then again, at the risk of being labelled an apologist for Bob, the issue that Bob has, at least as I see it, is that some immigrants who commit crimes are allowed to stay in the UK, and that also includes illegal immigrants who are here illegally, but can appeal constantly against deportation on the most spurious ground, even after committing crimes. On that subject I too have an issue, and I think that most people also.

The connection between immigration and crime is a bit of a myth, although, that stated, we cannot deny that some immigrants commit crime (yes, I know, just as some UK citizens do).

[Derrick]

His comment was, in fairness, about areas of predominantly Asian immigrants, naturally of a darker skin colour, creating problems for non-Asian people judged to be so based on the colour of their skin i.e non-whites discriminating against whites. This is based on several reports by both HM Government and various police forces in places like Burnley, Oldham and Halifax. There is no racism on Bob's part, he is reporting the facts as they are presented to him. Also, to be fair, this is a single example within a whole raft of examples that Bob keeps posting.

The issue of immigration needs to be kept separate from the issue of racism, except where it is deliberate and overt (i.e. BNP, NF, etc) and then it needs to be pointed out, rooted out, and ideally shown to be the fallacy it is.

You are correct in your comment about the conflation of immigration and crime. Bob is wrong to do this, as you and TTK have pointed out, although I would have to state that he is doing so to a lesser degree than you are both accusing him.

The trouble with your argument is that Furher Griffin's BNP have had a very successful hate campaign in the north west culminating in Herr Griffin (hitherto former uphill gardener and National Front member) being elected to the European Parliament as member for the North West.

I would not be happy with that for one moment if I were one of his constituients.

Was his election due to a low turnout coupled with mass hysteria whipped up by Bob's favourite comic The Daily Mail? You may add that to that the inability of the Conservative/Liberal/Labour failure to address the real problems that affect everyone that live there.

Our parents and grandparents fought against nazism and fascism 70 years ago on the continent. Did they go through all of that for us to fight it here at home?

Derrick

[TomTomKent]

I disagree. This thread is about immigration. Bob is fixated on crime and its relation to immigration and is using anecdotal evidence to try to portray it as a widespread problem which the statistics do not support. To my knowledge he has not acknowledged the many benefits of immigration to our country. He is also using a lot of examples pertaining to illegal immigrants, which actually aren't relevant to a discussion of legal immigration.

And more importantly has continued to do so long after the implications of his posts were pointed out, not just by myself but others. He could have acknowledged this at any point, instead of simply denying the implications of his posts and making statements that were at odds to them.

If he has no issue with those coming to country to work, or believe them all to be criminals, what exactly are the "case studies" he posts meant to represent? It was pointed out many times that illegal immigrants committing crimes are not the same as legal immigrants working, and that the news articles had nothing to do with the topic at hand. If he truly had no wish to appear to be tarring all immigrants with the same brush, why continue when it had been pointed out this is exactly what he appeared to be doing?

Why not say "Sorry, that post obviously had implications I did not intend, and perhaps we should return to the topic at hand?" Instead of calling "Nazi" and making ellaborat and inncaurate assumptions about what others may or may not expect, think, or endorse in straw man attacks?

[Derrick]

that must be a first

Jen

Blimey

Who did you think I was?

I think and feel and sometimes, when it is right, say what I think and feel.

Regards
Derrick

[TomTomKent]

True, you have a valid point there. But then again, at the risk of being labelled an apologist for Bob, the issue that Bob has, at least as I see it, is that some immigrants who commit crimes are allowed to stay in the UK, and that also includes illegal immigrants who are here illegally, but can appeal constantly against deportation on the most spurious ground, even after committing crimes. On that subject I too have an issue, and I think that most people also.

And as I have asked before (many, many times), why would the appeals in the immigration cases be changed based on criminal convictions? We don't expect anybody else to lose their right to the full judicial system, regardless of any other court process: If you are bankrupt when you are arrested you can still expect a trial. If you are convicted and you meet the criteria, you expect an appeal, regardless of your divorce status or your TV License.

Having the right to appeal is an entirely different issue from if that appeal should be upheld, and the cost of protecting the rights of the many innocents is the system being abused by the few. TThe forgotten alternative is, of course, that if the full process is not followed they may well find a loophole with which to renter the country legally, starting the whole cycle again.

Better to spend more time covering all arguments sooner, to expedite the process later should they try again.

[DrHopper]

The trouble with your argument is that Furher Griffin's BNP have had a very successful hate campaign in the north west culminating in Herr Griffin (hitherto former uphill gardener and National Front member) being elected to the European Parliament as member for the North West.

I would not be happy with that for one moment if I were one of his constituients.

Was his election due to a low turnout coupled with mass hysteria whipped up by Bob's favourite comic The Daily Mail? You may add that to that the inability of the Conservative/Liberal/Labour failure to address the real problems that affect everyone that live there.

Our parents and grandparents fought against nazism and fascism 70 years ago on the continent. Did they go through all of that for us to fight it here at home?

Derrick

Hateful loathsome little turd of a man (Herr Griffin, not you!).
His election was a combination of many things, but particularly of the failure of the mainstream parties to address what is a very real issue in parts of the North West - mass immigration has created problems (immigration = no bad thing, mass concentrated immigration into small areas = bad thing). The other thing about these areas of the NW is that they are poor/deprived areas, and the population in areas such as these tends to be more racist and conservative (with a small 'c') than elsewhere, despite what the Left says about the 'working man'.

Wasn't just our grandparents and parents - I too had pitched battles with members of the BNP in my fiery youth, and the only bar brawl I have ever been involved with was started by me punching a skinhead for calling my black friends '******s'.
But think about this; yes fascism was fought and defeated by them, thankfully, but what would your grandparents say about mass immigration and the issues we are debating here. And look at the world in 1939-45... not exactly a shining example of multi-culturalism is it. My own G-Grandfather was a founding member of the Communist Part of GB, fought police at suffragette meeting in Boggart Hole Clough, north Manchester, and was persecuted for his beliefs, yet happily marched behind Oswald Mosely in the streets of Manchester in 1935 on the issue of immigration. Things are not clear cut.

[TomTomKent]

Our parents and grandparents fought against nazism and fascism 70 years ago on the continent. Did they go through all of that for us to fight it here at home?

Well, while talking about stories from the Daily Mail archive...
"The Daily Mail's front page of 8 July 1934, featured the headline "Hurrah for the Blackshirts". The Mail also referred to Hitler's "sturdy young Nazis""

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daily_Mail

Sorry, just one of those historic curiosities.

[Bob Hinton]

- if we cannot have an open and honest discussion of immigration, then the 'problem', for such it is, will never be properly addressed.

Well we can always hope that one day we can have an open discussion about it, but as you say the pattern is to label anyone who tries to do just that a racist. Luckily name calling has never particularly bothered me.

[Bob Hinton]

Quite sure.

My emphasis.

Are you sure about that?

The comment about no go areas for whites was made after seeing graffiti stating certain areas were no go for whites. I believe similar graffiti has been seen daubed in Brick Lane.

[Bob Hinton]

And again...

France to deport more Romanians after discovering they are behind 80% of street crime

French Interior minister Claude Gueant says Romanian gangs are responsible for the vast majority of Parisian streetcrime
The vast majority of street robberies in Paris are now carried out by the children of Romanian immigrants, France’s Interior Minister has claimed.
Claude Gueant said the notoriously poor and corrupt eastern European state is responsible for exporting some of the most notorious sneak thieves in the world.
Many operate in gangs around the Gare du Nord Eurostar station, preying on English travellers as they arrive by high-speed train from London.
Last year France launched an onslaught against illegal Roma camps full of Romanian immigrants which had sprung up around the French capital.
In an interview with the Journal du Dimanche newspaper, Mr Gueant said: ‘Many illegal camps were evacuated.
‘However, we have to face up to another problem, that of Romanian delinquency. In Paris, 80 per cent of street robberies are committed by Romanian minors.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1PEWkwAy8

Gosh what a surprise! After all they only wanted to go to France to work – they are apparently professional criminals.