No limits to immigration

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Nats

I know you were addressing Bob, but I thought I'd chip in (and don't get us mixed up ; he writes books, I write captions )

I grew up in an area which, at the time, had the highest concentration of Jews in western Europe. I had Jewish friends at school and, later on, there were Jewish people whose houses I would be invited to. I have no trouble with Hasidic Jews or any other kind of Jews. They are not making silly statements about which laws to obey etc.

I also get on well with the Asians I have met. These are moderate, common sense sorts of people. But there must be a level playing field, and an extremist is an extremist, whatever colour he may happen to be.

I am almost persuaded that a little separatism may be ok! .I have no problem actually with people keeping their customs and religion as long as its not widow burning or female mutilation or wife beating.
I wasn't objecting to people keeping their customs and religion just pointing out that other groups in the uk have practised separatism just like some Muslims and some people seem unaware of that fact.
Best,
Norma

[Natalie Severn]

Some very fair points have been raised but we still have to remember that this thread is about immigration. Muslim men mistreating white girls is unacceptable but unless they are immigrants it is not relevant to this thread.

Bob's concerns are about immigrants abusing the hospitality of this country but the article he posted did not specifically refer to immigrants calling for a separatist Muslim state in our cities but 'extremist' Muslims - which I would take to mean 'devout Muslims'. Some of these may well be immigrants but most of them would not be.

The 7/7 bombers were all British by the way. Now - whether or not British Muslims should be behaving in such a way is worthy of deabte but requires a separate thread.

Hi Julie,
But with Bob seeming to be particularly worried about the separatist 'behaviour' of certain Muslim's, the replies here surely echo that particular concern?
I find such separatism worrying myself because I am all for people working together and finding what they can unite around ---what they have in common as workers,parents,part of a community-not what they can be tribal about.
On your other point ,I don't think that British Muslim bombers ---any bombers at all---blowing up a bus full of innocent people or a tube full of innocent people, can ever be a matter up for 'debate'.
It was too shocking for words.
I have a great regard for so many of your posts Julie, but I have to disagree here,
Best,
Norma

[Zodiac]

Some very fair points have been raised but we still have to remember that this thread is about immigration.

I offer my apologies if you feel that my posts have contributed to leading this thread astray.

Muslim men mistreating white girls is unacceptable but unless they are immigrants it is not relevant to this thread .

I'm sorry, but you really can't dismiss it in such an offhand manner! Life isn't as nice and tidy as that. Some of these men are immigrants, so I guess that its ok for me to mention them is it??? Some are the children or even grand children of immigrants, so, oops, better not mention them, they're a whole different ball game, even when they are one of those involved in the self same act of mistreatment!!! It may make a difference to you but I assure you that it makes Sod All difference to the victim.

Bob's concerns are about immigrants abusing the hospitality of this country but the article he posted did not specifically refer to immigrants calling for a separatist Muslim state in our cities but 'extremist' Muslims - which I would take to mean 'devout Muslims'. Some of these may well be immigrants but most of them would not be..

Did you actually bother to click the link that Robert, not Bob, provided?

http://www.muslimsagainstcrusades.com/

If so did you actually bother to read it? Now that is my definition of "extremist" Islam. Can you honestly say that it is in no way "extremist" but rather, merely "Devout"???

The 7/7 bombers were all British by the way. Now - whether or not British Muslims should be behaving in such a way is worthy of deabte but requires a separate thread.

Are you serious??? You really think that there is a debate??? There is no f-ing debate, of course they shouldn't be "behaving in such a way" anymore than David Copeland, the London Nail Bomber should have been "behaving in such a way".

Apologies again for daring to go "off-message"

Best wishes,
Zodiac.

[Robert]

Those who don't give overriding loyalty to this country, are not British, whether or not they have a piece of paper that says otherwise.

[Limehouse]

Some very fair points have been raised but we still have to remember that this thread is about immigration. Muslim men mistreating white girls is unacceptable but unless they are immigrants it is not relevant to this thread.

Bob's concerns are about immigrants abusing the hospitality of this country but the article he posted did not specifically refer to immigrants calling for a separatist Muslim state in our cities but 'extremist' Muslims - which I would take to mean 'devout Muslims'. Some of these may well be immigrants but most of them would not be.

The 7/7 bombers were all British by the way. Now - whether or not British Muslims should be behaving in such a way is worthy of deabte but requires a separate thread.

[Zodiac]

Yes,ok Zodiac - good points.But I could give you examples of travellers and their children [and their caravans horses and dogs-] being treated like vermin thrown off their patch of land -thats often little more than wasteland with nowhere to go at all- by irate 'respectable 'white people in very English villages ----man's inhumanity to man-and women and all that---no race has a monopoly on cruelty, rape and murder.
.

Hi Nats,

I agree totally with you, and it must be said that, sadly, there are certain areas of Leeds and Bradford where I would never take an Asian friend, for the very much the same unhappy reasons. As I said I don't know the answers, or even if there are any. Haters on both sides will, no doubt, continue to stir the pot while the rest of us are just trying to get by.

Best wishes,
Zodiac.

P.S. I know what you mean about country villages! No matter how bad life in the city gets, I'm keeping well clear of them. I've seen "Midsomer Murders" I know that they're up to no good alright!!!

[Robert]

Hi Nats

I know you were addressing Bob, but I thought I'd chip in (and don't get us mixed up ; he writes books, I write captions )

I grew up in an area which, at the time, had the highest concentration of Jews in western Europe. I had Jewish friends at school and, later on, there were Jewish people whose houses I would be invited to. I have no trouble with Hasidic Jews or any other kind of Jews. They are not making silly statements about which laws to obey etc.

I also get on well with the Asians I have met. These are moderate, common sense sorts of people. But there must be a level playing field, and an extremist is an extremist, whatever colour he may happen to be.

[Natalie Severn]

Yes,ok Zodiac - good points.But I could give you examples of travellers and their children [and their caravans horses and dogs-] being treated like vermin thrown off their patch of land -thats often little more than wasteland with nowhere to go at all- by irate 'respectable 'white people in very English villages ----man's inhumanity to man-and women and all that---no race has a monopoly on cruelty,[or rape and murder for that matter].
.

[Zodiac]

Dewsbury, Bradford and Tower Hamlets ... where Islamic extremists want to establish independent states with sharia law
Islamic extremists have called on British Muslims to establish three independent states within the UK.

Hi Bob,

I cannot speak to the situation in Tower Hamlets, but as regards Bradford and Dewsbury I have to say that there do indeed exist certain "No-Go" areas for white people, I'm sorry to say. I am afraid that it is nothing new either, in 1995 Muslim "youths", more accurately Muslim men, rioted in Manningham, Bradford. Not to put too fine a point on it, the Manningham/Lumb Lane area had long been Bradfords red-light district. During the riots many of the working girls were subjected to violent assualt, sexual assualt, gang rapes etc. but hey, they are only prostitutes right? Seemed to be the attitude of the population at large. Working girls don't tend press charges, and they were forced to move further out, away from the well lit streets, into the poorly lit post-industrial wastlands of Bradford where they are more at risk that ever. Vigilante justice, Muslim style, had triumphed were the Police had failed, no more "sluts" or "slags" in our neighbourhood, seemed to be the Muslim attitude. The Muslim community would, de facto, police its own neighbourhoods itself now.

Six years later and this, brush it all under the carpet and hope it goes away, state of affairs would come home to roost in a very big and very bad way for the city, with the 7th July Bradford riots of 2001. Now it wasn't just working girls on the receiving end of their hate it was all of you. It would be nice to say that things have changed for the better in the last 10 years and in some ways they have, but the reality is that in other ways things are even worse than ever. Too many Muslim men see white girls, any white girl, as "Meat" to be used, abused and consumed for their pleasure. The excuse that I hear for this the most often? "A Muslim girl/woman wouldn't,(pick any one of the following) do that, behave like that, wear that, dress like that, talk like that, be out at that time of night..etc. etc.) Meanwhile "Shaira Courts/Councils" sit in judgement on civil matters among the Muslim community in both Bradford and Dewsbury. Bradford may well be in regular danger of reaching boiling point again, but it is most certainly not a melting pot.

The 7th July, the 10th Anniversay of the Bradford Riots and the 5th Anniversary of the 7/7 London Tube/Bus Bombings. Two of the bombers were from Leeds. I'm sorry if all this sounded like a rant! It really wasn't meant to be, and I don't claim to have any of the answers to all of this either, I'm just getting it off my chest I guess.

Best wishes,
Zodiac.

[Natalie Severn]

Hasidic Shoppers in Stamford Hill:see above post

[Natalie Severn]

I thought this was interesting:
Dewsbury, Bradford and Tower Hamlets ... where Islamic extremists want to establish independent states with sharia law

Medieval 'emirates' would operate outside British rule

By Daily Mail Reporter

Last updated at 11:45 AM on 6th July 2011



Islamic extremists have called on British Muslims to establish three independent states within the UK.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1RKMYaN46

So these immigrants apparently want to set up independent countries within Britain. So when I posted that there was a danger of some immigrants wanting to take over certain areas of the country it seems as if I wasn't far wrong.

Bob, The Muslim's are not the only people .Are we to demonize the Jewish Community in Stoke Newington for this type of community too?


Hasidic Jews shopping in Stamford Hill, 2003.
Stamford Hill is at the centre of an Ashkenazi Orthodox Jewish and predominantly Hasidic community estimated by the local council and others to be some 20,000 strong.[7][8][9] They comprise around 10% of the overall population in Hackney and are growing at a rate of 5% each year.[10] It is the largest Hasidic community in Europe, and referred to as a square mile of piety,[5] reflecting the many Jewish men seen walking in their distinctive clothes on their way to and from worship. The congregations often represent historical links with particular areas of Eastern Europe in their dress and their worship. Many also retain international links with other congregations around the world. The largest of these congregations is the Satmar, which has five directly associated synagogues; Belz is another large community with several synagogues. In the surrounding area there may be over 50 synagogues and many observant Jews in the neighbouring areas of Stoke Newington, Upper Clapton and Tottenham identify with Stamford Hill

[Robert]

Presumably such folk are called extremists precisely to differentiate them from the moderate Moslems who must be fed up with them.

I'm not sure if this link will work :

http://www.muslimsagainstcrusades.com/obeythelaw.php

[Limehouse]

I thought this was interesting:
Dewsbury, Bradford and Tower Hamlets ... where Islamic extremists want to establish independent states with sharia law

Medieval 'emirates' would operate outside British rule

By Daily Mail Reporter

Last updated at 11:45 AM on 6th July 2011



Islamic extremists have called on British Muslims to establish three independent states within the UK.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1RKMYaN46

So these immigrants apparently want to set up independent countries within Britain. So when I posted that there was a danger of some immigrants wanting to take over certain areas of the country it seems as if I wasn't far wrong.

I would like to make a couple of points:

1. I think we have to be careful what we mean when we say Islamic extremists. The term has been used to refer to terrorists but what in fact does the term REALLY mean? For example - the women pictured in the photograph have their faces covered. What are we to suppose from that picture? Is this what is meant by 'extremist'? Are they simply devout Muslims?

2. There is still a tendency in your posts Bob - to link Muslims and immigrants without proper reference to the fact that many Muslims - devout Muslims - are British. Therefore - possibly many of the Muslims advocating independent Muslim states within some of our cities are British - not immigrants.

3. If you read the article carefully - what it actually reports is the establishment of an independent Muslim state within the cities named - for MUSLIMS. There is no suggestion that these cities will become independent Muslim states in their entirety for all those living in them.

4. Sharia law cannot replace British law without vast changes to the British legal system. However - aspects of Sharia law can be obeyed without distrupting the lives of non-Muslims. An example of this is the observation of Muslims to the eating of only Halal foods. Indeed - this works for Jews also - under Kosher laws. So - we already have aspects of Sharia law in place with many people hardly being aware of it.

5. Finally - we already have an example of people living in a virtual independent state under their own religious laws with their own schools and banks and shops with very little reliance on outside interference or support in Stamford Hill in London where there is a large community of Ashkenazi Orthodox Jews who have lived this way for many many years. Most of them are British and their way of life does not oblige the non-Jews living around them to obey their customs and laws.

In summary - I do not think this is an example of immigrants wanting to take over certain areas.

I do also think that the way the Daily Mail reports things like this - the language it uses and the photographs that accompany the report is meant to cause alarm and feeds people's fear of 'the other'. The Daily Mail clearly has an agenda which has little changed from the days when it cheered on the Blackshirts.

[Bob Hinton]

Interesting story.

I thought this was interesting:
Dewsbury, Bradford and Tower Hamlets ... where Islamic extremists want to establish independent states with sharia law

Medieval 'emirates' would operate outside British rule

By Daily Mail Reporter

Last updated at 11:45 AM on 6th July 2011



Islamic extremists have called on British Muslims to establish three independent states within the UK.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1RKMYaN46

So these immigrants apparently want to set up independent countries within Britain. So when I posted that there was a danger of some immigrants wanting to take over certain areas of the country it seems as if I wasn't far wrong.

[Bob Hinton]

Cheers

You are wrong there!

The correct word is hanged.

Unless of course they were being used like a pair of curtains etc.

Derrick

Thanks for that. I suppose it's like the past tense of light is lighted not lit!
It always looks so clumsy though.