Heaven Is a Fairy Tale Says Physicist Stephen Hawking

[Chris]

9. The Big Secret- being revealed that everyone goes to "heaven". everyone.

Your post reminded of an anecdote about an overheard scrap of conversation between two Cambridge academics. One was saying to the other: "And ninthly ..."

[Abby Normal]

The out-of-body near-death experience has been scientifically tested, Abby. Shelves were placed high on the walls of intensive care units, upon each of which was placed a white card bearing a unique three-digit number. Each time a patient reported an out-of-body experience, he or she was interviewed under rigorous scientific conditions. In all of the years during which this procedure continued, not a single interviewee reported seeing the white card, let alone the numeric identifier. Since this would be impossible amid a true near-death, out-of-body experience, I think it likely that the brain continues to function for a short period after death at a quantum level - in other words, at a level that cannot be detected by present day hospital equipment, and that the perceived after-death experience is merely a cognitive artefact of such a condition.

Very interesting Garry-i had no idea they actually tested this! I think your explanation is a very plausible one.

I have also wondered if not these "after death" or out of body experiences were mearly the brain having one last "dream" before the light goes out forever (as in no afterlife, heaven etc).

But what strikes me in the testimonials (including my brothers) is the similiarities (and unique) experiences of all.

Most common experiences:

1. Moment of death-feeling of leaving your body, all stress gone, pain gone,peaceful feeling, Knowing you've died (interesting). some experience initial trepidations of leaving alive loved ones-but this feeling then rabidly ends.

2. First moments after death- Floating away from your body, seeing your body and its environment from above, Wondering what all the fuss is about if people are frantically trying to revive you, not caring about it. Quickly losing all interest in it.

3. "The Journey"- feeling of traveling through:the sky,space, walking up stairs, floating down a corrider, the dark tunnel, No feeling of time-described by some as experiencing the infinite.

4. The white light-seeing a bright light or being that is undescribably beautiful and loving-drawing towards it, feeling of being truly at home again

5. Meeting past loved ones-meeting again "dead" family and friends, lovers. Being emrbaced, welcomed by all. one description was he was hugged by everyone he had ever known who had passed. One described them all applauding as he met them. The descriptions of the past loved ones always described them not as they looked when they were old or died, but when they were in their prime, or looked their best (i found this very interesting and a little odd)

All described the overall surroundings as incredibly beautiful, peaceful and embracing. many said it felt like they were finally, truly home again.

6. The return-being told "its not your time", feeling disapointed, not wanting to return. a feeling of being sucked, many described like a huge vacuum (i found this description rather odd and odd that it was a very common description). returnining into body and feeling of incredible pain.


Most said they no longer fear death, or look forward to it. One guy upon hearing a friend had died, thought "that lucky bastard". he was envious!



Some other testimonies include these experiences (not as common as above)

7. The life review-also described as "My life flashed before my eyes". Experience of seeing past life events or your whole life. One young girl described seeing what her future life would have been

8. The Question- related to above phase, some experienced being asked one question: what have you done for your fellow man. One described that when he had trouble remembering something-it was shown to him.

9. The Big Secret- being revealed that everyone goes to "heaven". everyone.


The major thing that struck me is that no one ever couched these experiences in direct specific religious terms. They say things like:

spiritual beings, something like angels, I guess you could call it heaven, A presence of pure love, like paradise, it was like God etc

None ever said: I was before God, or Jesus met me, or the angels brought me.

I found that this was VERY interesting and lends to beleivability IMHO.
Almost like the experiences are above religion (or specific religious faiths).

[caz]

It really bugs me when it is suggested - or believed - that religious faith comes first, and is what gives people the will to lead a moral life, doing good and helping others. Can't it just be accepted that some people are born with that will, and some will go on to have a religious faith while others won't? I realise that those who benefit probably don't care who is helping them or why. But on balance the people without faith who do good for its own sake sound like better adjusted individuals to me than anyone who does it with the promise of a heavenly reward in mind, or the fear of a hellish punishment if they don't.

isn't dismissing religion as claptrap denying that there are still mysteries and inexplicable concepts out there? Even inexplicable concepts that science has already taken itself out of the running for?

I mean, if we look at it, is Syphilis a disease or a punishment for the sin of lust? Well, both really. Clearly it's a disease, but without the lust the disease doesn't spread. And what good is the scientific explanation of the structure of the disease, if scientists don't coordinate an effort to keep it from spreading (which is a social services thing). I'm not sure religion has outlived it's usefulness yet.

It's just nature with all its inherent flaws, isn't it? Who - or what - says that a disease has less right in nature to spread itself, than a human has to avoid or overcome it? You don't need religion, science or even morals to see the natural consequences of certain human behaviour and to make you stop doing it (or stop others doing it) if those consequences are undesirable, unpleasant, unhealthy or not conducive to human survival. You only need half a brain for that.

The point I am making is, by all means let's have Prof Hawking's views on religion. But let's not regard him as an expert on religion, or the psychology of religious belief, or the history of religion, or the meaning of life. I'm sure he wouldn't want to be regarded as such.

The only point I'd make here is that nobody - scientist, bricklayer or layabout - need be an expert on fairies at the bottom of my garden, nor the psychology or history of garden fairy belief, to be able to say without fear of contradiction by any expert in any field, and without even examining my garden, that there will never be fairies at the bottom of it.

It can be called a scientific fact that fairies don't exist, because as a theory it won't be tested before a non-existent hell freezes over. Faith alone can't test it. It's like threatening the theory of evolution with your imaginary friend. You can shout and stamp your feet, using your right to free speech, but there are certain theories, nay facts, that won't be changed.

Love,

Caz
X

[Robert]

Well, CD, I will never eat rabbit stew again.

[c.d.]

On the other hand, a number of people who have undergone near-death experiences have also undergone major personality changes and made drastic changes in their lifestyles. Make of it what you will.

c.d.

[Robert]

I had a near death experience once. I was walking down a long, dark tunnel. There was light at the end of the tunnel. As I emerged from the tunnel I found myself in a beautiful landscape. And then...I was eaten by a ferret.

[Garry Wroe]

my brother in law "died" in a motorcycle accident and was revived his experience was very similar to other peoples who died and came back to life. Experiences which were all similar yet unique to each individual and leads one to beleive there is some sort of afterlife.

The out-of-body near-death experience has been scientifically tested, Abby. Shelves were placed high on the walls of intensive care units, upon each of which was placed a white card bearing a unique three-digit number. Each time a patient reported an out-of-body experience, he or she was interviewed under rigorous scientific conditions. In all of the years during which this procedure continued, not a single interviewee reported seeing the white card, let alone the numeric identifier. Since this would be impossible amid a true near-death, out-of-body experience, I think it likely that the brain continues to function for a short period after death at a quantum level - in other words, at a level that cannot be detected by present day hospital equipment, and that the perceived after-death experience is merely a cognitive artefact of such a condition.

[Abby Normal]

You're right, Abby. I can be a smug, arrogant git at times. And it can't be denied that some religious organizations do good work. But so do many secular ones.

I'm all for having a moral code and a compassionate nature but these days it doesn't have to be based on belief in supernatural beings or a fear of damnation.

Best wishes,
Steve.

Hi Steve
That was a very admirable response-Thank you.

I'm all for having a moral code and a compassionate nature but these days it doesn't have to be based on belief in supernatural beings or a fear of damnation.

Totally agree.

[Robert]

The argument that it's a good idea for people to have faith, because it has various good consequences, is an interesting but strange argument. That's because for it to work, the people having the faith mustn't be swayed by the argument! The two motivations - faith and utility - just won't hang together.

[Steven Russell]

Regardless of your personal views of Religion why attack with such self righteousness and vitriol? Why demean the many people and organizations around the world who give aid, donate millions and sacrifice so much in the name of religion? Are you or Stephen Hawking so sure of yourself that you would respond with such all knowing smugness? Is that not what you accuse "religious" people of with their faith? How can anyone be so sure of themselves in these things (on either side of the debate)-I would say its type of arrogance. You (or I) are not that wise my friend. Nobody is.

You're right, Abby. I can be a smug, arrogant git at times. And it can't be denied that some religious organizations do good work. But so do many secular ones.

I'm all for having a moral code and a compassionate nature but these days it doesn't have to be based on belief in supernatural beings or a fear of damnation.

Best wishes,
Steve.

[The Good Michael]

I'm not saying there is absolutely no God. I am saying that there can be no more logic in believing in God than there is in believing in any one of a million things that people dismiss as nonsense. Did Kosminski actually hear voices, or was he mad? If he was mad, what about those of you who try and prove the existence of God? One man's belief are hallucinations (Kominski) and group belief in simliar things are somehow rational? Religion at its best is an individual concept that never leaves a person's mind in order to infect others. At its worst, well look around you. It is typically at its worst. No book can possibly be the word of God. Anyone who believes so is as delusional as Kominski was. Or was he?

Mike

[Errata]

Yes, there are still things we don't understand. But looking for a supernatural cause is not the answer. Do you believe that AIDS is a divine punishment?

Condom use would significantly curtail the spread of all STDs. But will the Pope have it? This is one of the best examples of religion harming the human species I can think of!

Religion never moves unless to back away. Science is fluid and understands that previous belief systems may be superceded if and when a better idea comes along. That is the difference.

Best wishes,
Steve.

Of course I don't think that AIDS is a divine punishment. Am I going to tell a guy who stopped going to prostitutes because he believed that he was going to be divinely punished that he is wrong? Nope. Whatever works.

What I'm saying is that science is science, and then there is all the other important stuff that isn't science. Science tells us that education is the surest method of preventing STDS. Experience tell us that's not all that true. People can be experts in the field and still somehow think that all the facts and figures don't apply to them. So education and a healthy dose of fear is really the best way to go, and religion can provide that. Religions set up charities, treatment centers, counseling services. Religions try to address social ills, science doesn't.

For the most part, religion and science don't overlap. Faith and science do, but not religion. Religion is as flawed as any other governing force. And it is the height of madness to think that we need to, or even could eradicate faith. The lesson is, learn to make it work for you.

[Abby Normal]

But not cool enough to understand what you mean, Abby. Are you agreeing or saying I am a knobhead?

Best wishes,
Steve.

I pretty much agreed with you until you got here:
It is time we let go of this dangerous claptrap and made the most of the time we have. Garry's reference to the Tooth Fairy may have been seen as faceitious by some but he is absolutely right. Religion is utter hokum and I find it astonishing that anyone can give credence to such drivel in these times.



Regardless of your personal views of Religion why attack with such self righteousness and vitriol? Why demean the many people and organizations around the world who give aid, donate millions and sacrifice so much in the name of religion? Are you or Stephen Hawking so sure of yourself that you would respond with such all knowing smugness? Is that not what you accuse "religious" people of with their faith? How can anyone be so sure of themselves in these things (on either side of the debate)-I would say its type of arrogance. You (or I) are not that wise my friend. Nobody is.

[Robert]

But then, one's own dismissal can be dismissed, and so on.

I think it would help people if they would divide the subject into its components. E.g.

1. Is there a god?
2. If there is, what kind of god are we talking about?
3. If there is, does this god enjoin any beliefs or practices?
4. If so, do we like these beliefs and practices?
etc

#1 seems to be logically prior. I don't really see the point in arguing that religion has had bad consequences, therefore there is no god.

[Livia]

Yes, there are still things we don't understand. But looking for a supernatural cause is not the answer. Do you believe that AIDS is a divine punishment?

Condom use would significantly curtail the spread of all STDs. But will the Pope have it? This is one of the best examples of religion harming the human species I can think of!

Religion never moves unless to back away. Science is fluid and understands that previous belief systems may be superceded if and when a better idea comes along. That is the difference.

Best wishes,
Steve.

Yes, and then there's infants born infected with congenital
syphilis, AIDS, and other STDs. What did they do to deserve
their fate?

+1 what Steven Russell has posted, plus this:

What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.
~ Christopher Hitchens