Heaven Is a Fairy Tale Says Physicist Stephen Hawking

[Errata]

Since these discussions on religion tend to generate heat, it might be worth asking everyone :

Does it matter to you whether or not there is/is not a god? And if so, why does it matter to you?

Well, everyone wants to be right, so it seems like it should matter if there is a god...

Somehow it doesn't really, to me. I believe in one, I don't care if others do, but since I also don't really believe in any kind of afterlife I imagine that if I found out definitively that there was no god, I would be sad but nothing would really change for me.

I think if I believed in some kind of heaven it would matter. Or hell. But I don't.

[Robert]

Since these discussions on religion tend to generate heat, it might be worth asking everyone :

Does it matter to you whether or not there is/is not a god? And if so, why does it matter to you?

[DirectorDave]

This debate is becoming quite funny.

First of all Science is not fact....Science is just the best theory we have at the moment until a new one comes along.

Religion is a form of Science......but a very ancient one. The religious texts we have today were written by the most intelligent people of their day.

I think people who believe in a grand architect are just afraid of their own mortality.

On NDE's we can't deny that they don't happen and people who go through them have some remarkable changes in their life's after them but a massive release of endorphins at a point near death is the probable cause not that it is a first step to an afterlife.

An argument with believers is one non believers just can't win......because the only way we can prove a God did not design all we see and know is if he parts the clouds and tell us all (Bart Simpson style please big yin) and says "I didn't do it!".

[Errata]

I actually just made it up... bad phrase I suppose but what the heck..

Seriously though.... oppression of women.... refusal to allow democracy until heads started to get cut off.... starters of most (if not all) wars.... you name it.... one or both of the 2 Rs are behind it....

Blatantly not true you say... what's "blatantly" not true? The idea that religion and royalty have started nearly every war in history? Kept Mr and Mrs Joe Bloggs down for as long as they could before graciously allowing us to vote and decide our own rulers? oooh thank ye Mr King sir.... oooh you're so kind Mr Churchperson sir....

Whatever...

What religion prompted Stalin to round up hundreds of thousands of Jews filling mass graves throughout the forests of Russia? Or told Hitler to exterminate 10 million human beings in less than 10 years?

What monarch blew up a church filled with black school girls?

What god mandated global warming?

Any time you use an absolute instead of a specific, it becomes "demonstrably not true"

Oppression of women? Did religion and royalty participate? Absolutely. Did they start it? No. Incredibly high infant mortality started the oppression of women. The shift from matriarchal to patriarchal societies (a shift demanded by the common man) started it.

I have no idea how religion started. No one does. It's that old. I know how royalty started. I know how the monarchies that we recognize started. People were dying. Raiders and barbarians were razing small villages, disease was rampant, the level of technology had no yet caught up with the amount of food a person needed for his family. And powerful men would stand up and say, in exchange for a part of your harvest, I will make it so you can farm full time. I will fight your battles. I will repel the raiders. I will give you a safe place to hide, I will do what I can to let you concentrate on this one thing.

There is nothing sinister in this. It's a business deal. It an exchange of skills. And are the Royals to blame for ignoring their subjects in favor of excess? Of course. Are the subjects to blame for allowing a defunct business arrangement devolve into slavery? Yes. There were Marie Antoinettes. But there were also Richard IIIs. And quite a few Catherine the Greats, lived in excess but with an absolute mandate for modernizing her people to rival Europe.

Nothing on this planet is black and white. We live in shades of grays. And we evolve at our pace. We shed our conventions at our pace and not a second sooner. Monarchs are on their way out. Religion is not yet. There are more who do not believe than before, and some truly great men and women are in that number. But save the vitriol. Religion has helped and it has harmed. And like monarchy, manifest destiny, and any number of other prominent philosophies and world views, it will go when it goes. And blind hatred will not get rid of it a second sooner.

[Graham]

I'm not a believer, but my brother is (and how), and he once remarked that we would see our parents again. So I asked him under what circumstances would we see them - would the old man be down the pub, while mom did the housework, or would they be arrayed in shining raiment looking rather embarrasses? And what would we talk about that we couldn't/didn't talk about during our corporeal existence? And would we be stuck with them for eternity? Would I once again meet my old girlfriend Sue who I still fancy something rotten to this day? What about our old pets - would we see them? What about the sadistic bastard who taught me physics at school - would I get to whack him one the same as he whacked me?

By now my devout brother was beginning to dribble, so I let him off. The point is, he can believe all he likes, and good look to him, but I really do think his belief in Heaven ought to be based on something rather more rational than his simply stating that 'we will see our parents again'.

Graham

[Magpie]

"The two tines of a single fork of pure evil" just doesn't have much of a flow.

[johns]

I actually just made it up... bad phrase I suppose but what the heck..

Seriously though.... oppression of women.... refusal to allow democracy until heads started to get cut off.... starters of most (if not all) wars.... you name it.... one or both of the 2 Rs are behind it....

Blatantly not true you say... what's "blatantly" not true? The idea that religion and royalty have started nearly every war in history? Kept Mr and Mrs Joe Bloggs down for as long as they could before graciously allowing us to vote and decide our own rulers? oooh thank ye Mr King sir.... oooh you're so kind Mr Churchperson sir....

Whatever...

[Errata]

The 2 greatest scourges and impediments to humanity throughout the ages has been the 2 Rs

Religion
and
Royalty

Any inconvenience, brutal act or downright lie they could dream up to hurt, kill, hinder and weaken the general population has been committed by the Twin Forks of Pure Evil.

I bet you've been waiting DAYS to use the phrase "Twin Forks of Pure Evil" in a sentence.

First of all the above statement is not true. And blatantly not true. Secondly, "twin forks of pure evil" means two identical forks of pure evil, and not the two tines of a single fork of pure evil, so it's a bad metaphor.

[johns]

The 2 greatest scourges and impediments to humanity throughout the ages has been the 2 Rs

Religion
and
Royalty

Any inconvenience, brutal act or downright lie they could dream up to hurt, kill, hinder and weaken the general population has been committed by the Twin Forks of Pure Evil.

[Stephen Thomas]

If I said here on the boards that the french music hall performer Le Petomane was Jack the Ripper, you would want to see evidence wouldn't you?

Well, he did like to let rip .

[babybird67]

yes indeed

where does wishing him in eternal torment come in the realms of love thy neighbour and forgiving thine enemies?

[caz]

my Rabbi was kinda awesome.

He certainly sounds it, Errata!

Maybe they just don't like his tone?

I'm going to hell for that joke. We don't have one, and I'm going anyway.

I'm sure they don't like Hawking's tone - in either sense.

Of course, his comments were rather meek and mild compared with touchy believers who insist he will roast in hell for voicing them.

And I bet Hawking won't be sulking either, or wishing the worst punishment imaginable on his critics.

Love,

Caz
X

[Errata]

I thought Abraham didn't have to sacrifice his son after all.

He didn't have to sacrifice Isaac. Though those had to be a few miserable hours. He had to sacrifice Ishmael.

[Robert]

I thought Abraham didn't have to sacrifice his son after all.

[Errata]

However, I can and will resist any efforts to push their beliefs on me, and I will remain cynical about their true motivation. For example it makes me sick to my stomach when people in a position of power (politically or otherwise) claim to have God on their side, and that everything they do must therefore be God's will. I don't know what's more dangerous - when they actually believe it or when they don't. I'd sooner the powers that be assume they are on their own with the abilities - and normal human failings - that nature gave them.

Hey i'm a believer and I feel you on this. I'm a Jew and I can say all the major Christian prayers know when to stand/kneel etc cause I just got tired of everyone at friends weddings look at me like about to burst into flames. I even had to get baptized to be my friend's baby's godmother. That was... a very long negotiation session with the pastor.

Someone asked my rabbi something about Israel and said "Like they say, if G-d is for us, who can be against us?" and my Rabbi said "G-d"
"But he's for us"
Rabbi:"Well, he could be. He could easily be against us as well."
"He can't take both sides!"
Rabbi:"I do it all the time, are YOU gonna tell G-d he can't do that?"
"I can't believe he would side against his chosen people!"
Rabbi:"He flooded the earth, made Abraham sacrifice his son, Told us we all had to cut our foreskins off, had us wander through the desert for 40 years AFTER 10 generations of slavery, told us we couldn't eat lobster... What makes you think He has EVER been on our side?"


my Rabbi was kinda awesome.

If it has to boil down to opinion on either side, while right or wrong cannot be established, why is anyone getting heated about Hawking's personal conclusions? What's all this about him being a 'tyrant'?

Love,

Caz
X

Maybe they just don't like his tone?

I'm going to hell for that joke. We don't have one, and I'm going anyway.