Osama Bin Laden DEAD- Killed By U.S. Forces

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Robert

Just thank God that the rope had been abolished when the trials of the Guildford Four, The Maguire Seven, The Birmingham Six, The Bridgewater Four, Judith Ward, Stefan Kiskco and Barry George occurred, among many others.

Too many mistakes are made in the CJS to even think about bringing Capital punishment back. Most MP's understand this. Plus it is not a constitutional issue and does not warrant a referendum.

Derrick

Absolutely.Well said Derrick,

Norma

[Robert]

Hi Derrick

No, it isn't a constitutional issue : it's more fundamental than that. The question is, is Britain to be a democracy?

Of course there will be miscarriages of justice. Arguably there will also be innocent lives lost if we don't bring back the rope, in terms of innocent victims of undeterred murderers. You might not agree with that, and of course you will be able to put your view in any referendum debate.

The key thing is, the people who decide on this issue should be the people who are affected by it, i.e. the people in general, and not a bunch of expense-fiddling crooks who live in posh areas (funded by the taxpayer) and who sometimes enjoy round-the-clock police protection.

BTW, in case anyone thinks I am a die-hard capital punishment supporter, I would actually approach any referendum with an open mind. Somehow, though, I don't think the abolitionists will be having a referendum. After all, They Know Best. You can tell that they're clever people - just look at the state of the economy. Towering intellects all.

[Natalie Severn]

You can tell that they're clever people - just look at the state of the economy. Towering intellects all.

You are talking about the bankers I take it Robert? Like you I detest the way they are making an absolute fortune out of us who bailed them out.
When I see what scroundrels they are I get like you do over stringing people up.But then not every banker deserves to be hanged.
Cheers Robert old pal,
xx

[Limehouse]

I'll give you two contrasting demo's, in the sense that they were organised by the left and the right.

The first is the Anti-Iraq war demo in 2003 which was perhaps leftist as it was organised by the Stop The War Coalition and ended very peacefully.

The second is the Countryside Alliance demo which was a right wing mish mash of saddo's who somehow tried to convince us townies that they were the true custodians of the countryside. A countryside that was stolen from the common people during the Acts of Enclosure some 300 years ago. That demo ended in so-called upright country types hitting coppers. Very diginified I don't think.

Derrick

Bravo Derrick!!

I was on the Anti-Iraq demo. It was totally peaceful. More than a million people marched without so much as a scuffle.

[Robert]

Hi Nats youngish pal

Who was supposed to be keeping an eye on the bankers?

Yes, not all bankers deserve to be strung up - some deserve gas.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Nats youngish pal

Who was supposed to be keeping an eye on the bankers?

Yes, not all bankers deserve to be strung up - some deserve gas.

Is anybody keeping an eye on them now?
btw ta for compliment young Robert!

[Robert]

Nats, I wasn't making an anti-Labour point, I was making an anti-politician point. So yes, just who is keeping an eye on them now?

[Limehouse]

Nats, I wasn't making an anti-Labour point, I was making an anti-politician point. So yes, just who is keeping an eye on them now?

The bankers are the men who will be blamed for nothing.

[Natalie Severn]

Nats, I wasn't making an anti-Labour point, I was making an anti-politician point. So yes, just who is keeping an eye on them now?

I understood that Robert.

[Natalie Severn]

The bankers are the men who will be blamed for nothing.

Good one Julie!

[Red Zeppelin]

I am actually a Londoner by birth but have lived in Peterborough for 22 years. Although not a large city - Peterborough has always had a multi-cultural population but in recent years this has grown dramatically.

I'm glad I don't live there then. Not for me, thanks. That's one of the reasons why I left south London. I prefer living in rural England. I don't want to have to look at some religious nut in a burka walking past me.

There has been an Asian community here for over fifty years. Most people live and work side-by-side peacefully and we enjoy the different cultural festivals that take place from time to time.

Asian people are not exclusively Muslims. It's not Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists who are going around England making complete tits of themselves.

The EDL actually say nice things about Sikhs and others.

http://theenglishdefenceleagueextra.blogspot.com/2010/12/peterboroughs-sikhs-are-being-used-by.html

I singled out the EDL because I have had direct experience of their behaviour.

Do you have a link? So I can see exactly what they did.

After you claimed the UK sold Saddam "tanks and guns" I'm afraid I'm wise enough to not just take your word for it.

They were not in our city to protest about bombings in Britain or America or anywhere else. They were there to offend the local Asian community.

Again, link? So I can see for myself. From all the evidence I can find the EDL are against specific religious extremism and not anti Asian in general.

There is a point to be made you see. Just a week or so after 9/11 - four local Asian youths killed a young white boy walking his girlfriend home. They did so in a very brutal and horrible way and it was definitely a crime based on race. The community - including the Asian community - worked together to bring those responsible to justice. Since then - various groups - including the BNP and EDL - have tried to capitalise on this event but the community rejects all attempts to allow this event to divide us.

Links? I'd be interested to read about this myself.

No person who follows Islam supports extremism or violence against other Muslims or non-Muslims.

I wish I lived in your little world. You really and trully believe that? Do you?

The true Muslims in my community and in many other communities work hard to reject and speak ouit against these extremists.

They don't speak out nearly enough. This seems to be a common consensus. Maybe it has changed somewhat lately but the impression is still there that they are not outspoken enough.

I am against ALL forms of racism and will always speak out against it.

It's not about racism. Don't turn religion into a race issue.

The EDL don't go around protesting at Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists.

The EDL is not an effective voice against the spread of Islamic extremism because it seeks to divide people and point out differences instead of uniting against racism and extremism.

Well there ARE differences between Muslims and non Muslims. The division is already there in many places. We DON'T all live in harmony and in each other's pockets. No use hiding from that. There are some vast differences. If you don't think that Sharia Law is a devisive subject then I can't help you.

You seem to be an apologist for Islam. It's a crazy religion that should have been left in the dark ages.

[Red Zeppelin]

Zep,

I have to agree with you about Islam, but I would lump it together with all organized ( a loose term) religion. Not only do I believe in church and state being separate, but I believe all forms of worship should only be allowed in the homes and in groups of less than 10. I also believe all religions should be taught in school because through sheer inundation of such nonsense, the discerning student will have no alternative but to see them all connected and therefore bollocks. As I've said, everyone should be allowed to believe what they want to, but to openly practice religion has the exact same effect as political parties do. It polarizes whole groups of non-thinkers against each other.

Mike

Totally. I'm with you.

Personally it makes me happy that England is a country which is increasingly turning towards agnostic or atheist attitudes. We are growing up and have been doing so for a long time. Religious straw clutching has been diminishing in England ever since Darwin and that is to be applauded.

Unfortunately backward minded Islamics are increasing in number due to their birth rate, just as backward minded eastern European Catholics (Poles etc) looking for work are, but this is not enough to alter the overall trend in England.....which is one of ever increasing rejection of religion.

[Limehouse]

I'm glad I don't live there then. Not for me, thanks. That's one of the reasons why I left south London. I prefer living in rural England. I don't want to have to look at some religious nut in a burka walking past me.



Asian people are not exclusively Muslims. It's not Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists who are going around England making complete tits of themselves.

The EDL actually say nice things about Sikhs and others.

http://theenglishdefenceleagueextra.blogspot.com/2010/12/peterboroughs-sikhs-are-being-used-by.html

Do you have a link? So I can see exactly what they did.

After you claimed the UK sold Saddam "tanks and guns" I'm afraid I'm wise enough to not just take your word for it.



Again, link? So I can see for myself. From all the evidence I can find the EDL are against specific religious extremism and not anti Asian in general.




Links? I'd be interested to read about this myself.



I wish I lived in your little world. You really and trully believe that? Do you?



They don't speak out nearly enough. This seems to be a common consensus. Maybe it has changed somewhat lately but the impression is still there that they are not outspoken enough.



It's not about racism. Don't turn religion into a race issue.

The EDL don't go around protesting at Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists.



Well there ARE differences between Muslims and non Muslims. The division is already there in many places. We DON'T all live in harmony and in each other's pockets. No use hiding from that. There are some vast differences. If you don't think that Sharia Law is a devisive subject then I can't help you.

You seem to be an apologist for Islam. It's a crazy religion that should have been left in the dark ages.

I am only going to answer a few of your points because I don't like your tone.

I never said all Asian people are Muslim. We have a significant Muslim and Hindu and Sikh community - all of whom have their particular festivals and all of which are celebrated in our city. We also have a large eastern European community. I have only seen a few women wearing the burka and it does not bother me. The only objection I would have to the burkas is if a woman was forced to wear it. The main point about the burka for women who chooose to wear it is that it gives them a certain liberation. It means they can be judged by their actions and their brains rather than their looks. Perhaps we should try to understand these issues rather than feeling so threatened by them.

I can't give you a link to the actions of all EDL members in Peterborough because it is not all on film. However- I [B]heard[B] EDL members speaking out against the burka whilst they themselves had their faces covered by hoods and scarves. I heard followers of Isam being referred to as scum. You can believe me or disbelieve me.

If you want to read about the young man who was killed in 2001 you can google 'Ross Parker Peterborough' and read the story for yourself. It is well established that Ross was killed by three or four Asian youths because he was a white boy. Various right-wing groups have tried to capitalise on this but Ross's family have refused to allow them to do so.

Islam is a peaceful religion. Anyone who truly follows Islam understands this. Anyone who commits violent acts in the name of Islam is not a true Muslim. True Muslims will work to eradicate these fringe groups because they endanger Islam itself. I have no sympathies will those who plant bombs and blow people up and have spoken out personally against the lunatic ravings of some members of the Finsbury Park mosque.

If the EDL want to do something constructive about the spread of extremism they should do their homework a little better and understand the Muslim faith and then target those who degrade that faith by advocating violence. Picking on women wearing a burka and targeting ALL Muslims is only going to drive impressionable young Muslims into the clutches of extremists.

Just before Easter I sat with a group of young people and colleagues for a time of quiet reflection before breaking up for the Easter holiday. There were Catholics and Anglicans and Muslims and members of other faiths but our main concern was to focus on what unites most faiths and those of non-faiths and that was our duties as fellow humans. As we reflected we read or recited a few lines from the prayer of St Francis - just because it seemed relevant to us all. Here are the lines we read or recited:

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.
Where there is hatred, let me sow love.
Where there is injury, pardon.
Where there is doubt, faith.
Where there is despair, hope.
Where there is darkness, light.
Where there is sadness, joy.

[Phil H]

RZ

I think, if you consider it for a moment, that all that has been lost is those who never believed in the first place - who attended church for social or community reasons - they felt they had to.

What remains, are people who's beliefs are stronger than before, because they WANT to be there.

I also find your argument superficial because all it addresses is organised religeon - people reject church, priests, and all the paraphenalia of faith.

Look at the growth in interest in New Age philosophies, the space devoted to books on those subjects etc, and I think you'' find that people have not lost their SPIRITUALITY at all. And that is what matters.

Also there is a new religeon on the block - science (or more specifically medicine) - its acolytes are men and woman in white coats. regard how the public grasp the NHS as they once did the church - yet the medical profession does not have the answers, cannot answer the questions and fails just as much as old-style religion did.

Finally - your lack of tolerance for other views, your triumphalism about the supremacy of one approach over another, is somewhat distasteful. More to the point though it says little for the sort of society that agnosticism or aetheism will promote if it ever gets the chance.

Red in your screen-name strikes me as appropriate - redolent of Stalinist Russia and all that that conveys.

Poor you.

Phil

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Phil,
Where to start; pot calling kettle black? You say RZ is intolerant yet you express intolerance of people's practical dependance on an NHS which is a contract between government and its people,most of whom have contributed to the NHS very significantly during their lives and has nothing to do with religion for goodness sake.
Its disingenuous too for you to start making a spurious dichotomy between 'religion' and 'organised religion' .Fact is one has always led to the other, no matter how hard you try to disguise it, organised religion can be hugely intolerant of other religions-Iran being just one that happens to frequently hit the news as a current example.
You talk of RZ as being a 'red' and therefore being all that is bad and hell driven presumably. Yet you fail to see the role played by the US in creating its Frankenstein, Osama Bin Laden who as a young member of the Mujahideen was US backed -the US using religion,in this case Islamic fundamentalism against the soviet backed secular leader of Afghanistan,Nejibullah.This was a state too that granted women basic liberties -the freedom to be educated alongside men,wear what clothes they chose and enjoy the freedoms many of us in the West enjoy and take for granted .And no I am not an apologist for the old Russia which was moribund and desperately needed to be democratised but the fact is that Afghanistan was ,in the 1980's, a far more progressive society than it is today as far as women's rights were concerned.
I wonder if those who used 'religion' against 'communism'- as when the CIA used religion against Soviet troops in Afghanistan- have ever regretted seeing the boomerang slam back into their own home ground?
The attacks on New York,the attacks in London, horrific,underserved attacks on innocent people in offices,on their way to work in tubes and buses...its all beyond words....
But hey,no,this is not an attack on ordinary Muslim people and their absolute entitlement to practice their religion.I totally disagree with R Z about this.Ofcourse most Muslim people ,and I am speaking of those I have met here,in the UK, are decent,kind, hard working people who want to and do contribute greatly to our society.
Norma