UN authorises military action against Gaddafi

[DVV]

I believe there was a sort of consensus in Egypt against Mubarak, and against Ben Ali in Tunisia.
Is that the case in Libya with Gaddafi ?
I'm not sure.

[Natalie Severn]

Well there is an Arab revolution sweeping the entire region thats threatening to throw out the old rulers who did and do big deals with the West mostly over oil.The West is in a "difficult" position having to applaud the move towards democracy , ditch their old pals and keep everything crossed in the hope the reconstruction of the region----if allowed to happen....won"t be too economically painful---its all about oil deals!
Cheers
Norma

[jason_c]

Well there is an Arab revolution sweeping the entire region thats threatening to throw out the old rulers who did and do big deals with the West mostly over oil.The West is in a "difficult" position having to applaud the move towards democracy , ditch their old pals and keep everything crossed in the hope the reconstruction of the region----if allowed to happen....won"t be too economically painful---its all about oil deals!
Cheers
Norma

Its these oil deals that keep the NHS running.

[jason_c]

I think of course that local politics is the primary problem in any local problem. You are absolutely right.

But I think it's worth noting that we tend to do more harm than good. Getting rid of Hitler was good. But there likely would have been no climate for the Nazi party if Germany hadn't been slapped with crippling and highly unfair war reparations for WWI. The Middle East is a mess, and we do have a habit taking out leaders and installing worse ones, but mostly the problem is that the entire region was mapped out by their old imperialist masters who paid no attention to culture and native population. And then they were quite possibly deliberately unclear as to why they made the decisions they did. So now there is an independent country that is non homogenized, and no one knows why those choices were made, or what the expectations are. It's just baffling sometimes.

You may be correct about our mapping out of the region. However even here its difficult to tell. An instance being Bahrain. We could hardly have mapped out the island but it still is rife with sectarian problems.

[Natalie Severn]

In the case of Hitler and Germany ,Hitler attacked us-----it was then that we took up arms....we actually had spent a number of years previously appeasing him. Ours was a defensive position.

[Natalie Severn]

You may be correct about our mapping out of the region. However even here its difficult to tell. An instance being Bahrain. We could hardly have mapped out the island but it still is rife with sectarian problems.

Its also the home of the 5th Fleet!!!!

[Natalie Severn]

Its these oil deals that keep the NHS running.

Actually the NHS is a "contract" between the government and the people and has been since 1946.We pay for the NHS through our National Insurance contributions.The people , btw,have kept their contract since 1946.

So regarding Libya, its ok in your book that it is probably as much about the protection of oil interests of BP etc etc as it is about democracy and freedom for the rebel forces ?
Why is nothing being said about Saudi troops invading Bahrain to help the Bahrainian King to crush the movement for democratic rights there? After all we went to war over Sadam Hussein invading the sovereign kingdom of Kuwait

[Chris]

In the case of Hitler and Germany ,Hitler attacked us

Poland?

[Errata]

You may be correct about our mapping out of the region. However even here its difficult to tell. An instance being Bahrain. We could hardly have mapped out the island but it still is rife with sectarian problems.

And this gets back to the idea that locals are the primary cause of the problems locals have. But maybe we need to stop meddling in their problems and let the come up with solutions that work for them.

But Iraq was an artificial construct. Iran came out pretty well in that the population is almost universally Shi'ite. But Iraq has a Sunni majority, but also Shi'ites to the south (if i recall correctly) and Kurds in the North. Kurdistan was eliminated, with the territory being split between Turkey, Iraq, and I can't remember at the moment. Clearly this did not work out well for the Kurds, or for Iraq as a country.

There are people who swear up and down that when Israel and Jordan were created (Jordan's creation was complex, and it is a gross oversimplification to say the UN created it, but for this purpose the statement serves), Israel was to be the Jewish homeland, and Jordan the Palestinian homeland. They both were Palestine. And I don't know if these people are right, but it makes sense that the UN would do that. Documents both for and against this theory exist. It is entirely possible that when the UN made this division, the left hand didn't know what the right was doing. There is certainly no evidence in the initial years of either country that either Israel or Jordan knew about this proposed arrangement, and clearly that's not how it fell out in the end. I don't know if it would have made a difference, but I think certainly a lot of confusion could have been cleared up if the UN had said "No, we did create a Palestinian homeland. That's why we made Jordan."

And I'm not even going to get into how our interference in Iran has come back to bite us in the butt every time and we never learn...

Democracy isn't for everyone. And not everyone wants it. I think the west's insistence on it is no better than 19th century imperialism. And I think that when we go into foreign countries and accomplish our own objectives and leave the local's objectives unaddressed, we pretty much guarantee that what happened to the Kurds after Desert Storm will happen in any country we go into.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Do we really help people when we do this? Haven't we historically screwed this up on a colossal scale? I mean, the entire 20th century is essentially a guide book on how to NOT meddle in foreign affairs.

I'd agree with the conclusion but disagree with the reasoning, Errata.

Whether or not the West enhances (our version of enhances, naturally) those people's lives is immaterial, the real issue surrounds the authority to go in and rearrange the furniture. It ain't our garden.

[Natalie Severn]

And this gets back to the idea that locals are the primary cause of the problems locals have. But maybe we need to stop meddling in their problems and let the come up with solutions that work for them.

Right on Errata! Hands off !

[Natalie Severn]

Poland?

Yes Chris......and in 1939 it marked the moment of war.Just as today the start of implementing the no fly zone [ by France a few hours ago] might mark yet another disastrous war with more bloodshed and people killed than had we not interfered.
The rebels did their best but they didn"t succeed.It should have been left like that for the time being.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Poland?

I think the honest answer is that a Germany controlling the North coast of France (both WW1 and WW2) was too much of a risk to our economic interests.

[Chris]

The rebels did their best but they didn"t succeed.It should have been left like that for the time being.

That's all very well, but in practice it would mean giving Gaddafi carte blanche to take revenge on his own people. Have you really considered what that would mean in human terms?

[Natalie Severn]

That's all very well, but in practice it would mean giving Gaddafi carte blanche to take revenge on his own people. Have you really considered what that would mean in human terms?

Think of Iraq.Something like one hundred and fifty thousand civilians died in Iraq as a direct result of the war.
In the situation in Egypt the people were in a very large majority in favour of Mubarak being got rid of and although he brought in the army initially and 300 people were killed, the movement grew and grew until Mubarak had to go and that revolution is ongoing.
In Libya nobody quite knows who the rebels are or how many they are .In Benghanzi there seem to be quite huge numbers of them-the vast majority in fact but in Tripoli and other areas of Libya? Also a number of Gadaffi"s commanders defected to the other side.At least one of Gadaffis commanders crossed back--so what exactly is the composition of the "rebels"?
But sure,many, many thousands of these people are no doubt desperate to get rid of the dictator Gadaffi and quite rightly want their freedom.And yes, Gadaffi does commit horrific acts of atrocity on those he calls "rats" .
But now may not have been the moment for them to press on.Its not our fight anyway.Why ,if it is ,are we not calling for a "no fly zone" over Bahrain?