Burka

[Bob Hinton]

Bob,
So what happens if a person who has killed as a result of mental health problems arising from an illness such as paranoid schizophrenia, ie due to an illness of the mind that was beyond his or her control? Do we hang these people by the neck too?
Also what if,as in the case of Timothy Evans, an innocent person is hung by mistake and its later discovered that he was renting part of a serial killer"s house and hanging him was all a tragic mistake?The serial killer in question who had not yet been caught ,Christie , even went along to court and testified against the poor man.
Besides who on earth wants this country to become the laughing stock of Europe by doing an about turn to hanging in line with the kind of barbaric stuff that goes on in Saudi Arabia and Iran with public beheadings and stonings? Surely you are not recommending a return to hanging and flogging are you?

Good points but someone who was mentally ill would not be convicted of murder as they would plead insanity.

I think the point that upsets people is that when hanging was finally abolished in the early seventies I believe, we were told by the government that for the publics protection murderers would now serve life terms.

The public took that to mean that they would be in prison for the rest of their life, however that turned out not to be true. The problem you have in not having execution as an option is that someone serving time for a murder has nothing to lose if he kills again. I believe there are several murderers inside you have comitted further murders, what are we going to use as a sanction? Locking them up for longer than life?

I would be happier if we had a system of everybody convicted of murder was sentenced to death which would be commuted to life imprisonment meaning they go in but don't come out.

However if they transgress while in prison the death penalty is immediately re-instated. This would be a powerful insentive for them to behave themselves.

I freely admit that mistakes are made and there have been innocent people ( I don't count Evans in this total) who have been wrongly hanged. However are these peoples lives any more precious than the innocent victims who have been murdered by released killers?

It could only be a judge or politician who said it is better for ten guilty men to go free rather than one innocent man is convicted, for it is very unlikely that such a person would ever be the next victim of those ten guilty men, but the rest of us, not living in well protected ivory towers, would most definitely be the future victims.

[Suzi]

Be stoning in the streets at this rate!!!
The full 'letterbox' bhurkha IMHO is a tad worrying and I still have a private (loud!) laugh re the woman (presumably) seen in Brick Lane- wearing one with her horn rimmed glasses on the outside!!!!!! ( )

When in Rome springs to mind I guess- but- will we be saying the same thing re turbans and hassidic jews next?- I hope not!
Mind you Mr L if someone turns up to read my meter in a balaclava- OK that may raise some concern- mind you- the last person who did that was female with tattoos and mega face piercings- very sweet she was too!

Suz x

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Bob,
Well I can go along with the idea of life meaning life for murder but I can"t go along with the idea of the law being allowed to make the odd mistake by hanging an innocent person because this is a safer option for society than letting murderers go free after serving a bogus "life" sentence.




Caps,
You make an absolutely valid point about it appearing to be one rule for women and another for men .Last Summer I saw a woman dressed in a burka-[btw -I wish I could write in beautiful Arabic script like you apparently can!].The woman had on not only the burka, but a veil over her eyes and was groping her way forward with some difficulty under the shops lights and life looked quite a struggle what with the heat, pushing a buggy with a baby in it ---[the rear of the buggy was bulging with plastic shopping bags] and she was trying to hold onto her other child as best she could ,by the hand.However the male she was with, presumably her husband, was walking ahead of her , free handed and dressed in modern denim jeans and T shirt .
No knowing either whether or not this was one of the many arranged marriages that have become quite common here.

Live and let live I suppose?

[Suzi]

Hi Nats
OK burka- sorry my spelling mistake there- yep got to be live an let live I guess- But.... That story of your there says it all I reckon..
Suz xx

[Robert]

Nats, the capital punishment argument has its pros and cons. Ultimately its a matter for the people. A referendum would appear to be in order.

BTW, of all the arguments I've heard against the death penalty, your "laughing stock" argument has to be the wackiest.

"What ever would the neighbours say?"

Hanney! You have been consuming electricity! Take fifty power lines.

HSQ, MA

[Natalie Severn]

Robert,
I was honestly a bit surprised there still was a 'Bring Back Hanging" lobby? Are you going to volunteer as Britain"s next hangman then Robert? Is this all to do with supporting fundamentalism of one kind or another?
I know there is a lot of public flogging ,public beheadings and a fair bit of public stoning in quite a few countries where fundamentalism is rife- and some thousands of women languishing in jails because they would prefer to live in a secular society ----in fact they would prefer to live under some sort of Democracy if possible.........but where is this going to end---are we actually going to lobby for widow burning to be allowed as well in honour of certain fundamentalist religious "revivals"?

[Robert]

Hi Nats

No, there's nothing fundamentalist or religious about me. I don't believe in gods, including the little tin ones.

For me, the issue of capital punishment hinges on a trade-off between the need for deterrence, on the one side, and the risk of a miscarriage of justice on the other. It's a matter for the people to decide.

I have no moral qualms whatsoever about executing a murderer. I would pull the lever to send Hindley through the floor and I would smoke a fag while doing it. I save my sympathy for human beings, not for the scum who kill them.

[claire]

Well Claire, the thing about a court appearance is, that if a woman is giving evidence as a witness or a defendant, it's important for the jury to be able to see her face. And men serve on juries. For that matter, the barristers and the judge must see her face too.

Why? There are plenty of cases where witnesses give evidence in camera. There's no supposition under the law that the jury should be able to identify them; as far as a judge is concerned, the important thing is that he or she should be able to satisfy themselves as to the individual's identity. If a juror is unable to accept that there are some cases where they must rely on others' expertise, then it's arguable that there is no place for them on a jury.

But, I do take your point. In a western society we feel more comfortable talking to, or listening to, a face. As you note, it is easier to read (and trust) a person who we (ie. westernised Brits etc) can see.

[Robert]

Hi Claire

As I understand it, evidence in camera is reserved for situations where there would be a risk to a witness's safety if they gave evidence in open court. The fact is, the jury is entitled to look at the face of the witness/defendant, to try to gauge whether they look confident/shifty/pleased/upset etc. It isn't a question of establishing identity. If the question of identity depends on anyone on the jury actually knowing the person concerned, then they should tell the Judge that they know the person and they will be discharged from the jury.

[Natalie Severn]

Hindley Robert-----I would join you with your fag.
But Robert,you havent answered my question.Why not go the whole hog and have public hangings ,the birch,the stocks, the pillory ,hands cut off for stealing a sheep .whoops---I forgot -it was a hanging offence wasnt it ? So why not go the whole hog?
Cheers
Norma

[Robert]

Hi Nats

Certainly I would allow the relatives of the victim to attend the execution, if they wished. It's funny that you should mention public executions, for anti-hanging film-makers have never had any problem re-enacting executions to show the "cruelty" of the punishment. In such cases, however, they usually come over all squeamish at the idea of depicting what the murderer actually did to his victims. There are no flashbacks to when the victims were innocent little children, and how they were once happy, etc etc. If the victims get on screen at all, it's usually in the first few minutes, after which the next hour or more is spent whitewashing the murderer.

Birch - yes.
Stocks and pillory - might offer them to those on very short sentences as an alternative to jail. The trouble would be, how do you stop people throwing dangerous objects instead of tomatoes?
Hand cut off for stealing - no. If the State makes a mistake, there's no possibility of rectification, and unlike hanging, where the general population's very lives depend on deterrence, the stakes here aren't high enough. So a prison sentence would do.

Perhaps those who argue that short prison sentences don't deter and long prison sentences don't deter and capital punishment doesn't deter and it's all so terribly inhumane and beastly - perhaps those people would like to disclose how they would tackle crime. And please don't tell me that crooks can be "redeemed" with a copy of the New Testament in one hand and a book by Lord Longford in the other.

[Natalie Severn]

Lets start with the law makers....

Perhaps those who argue that short prison sentences don't deter and long prison sentences don't deter and capital punishment doesn't deter and it's all so terribly inhumane and beastly - perhaps those people would like to disclose how they would tackle crime. And please don't tell me that crooks can be "redeemed" with a copy of the New Testament in one hand and a book by Lord Longford in the other.

Well I think I would start Robert by encouraging those privileged MP"s of ours to each and every one of them lead by good "example" ---for they are the ones who make and pass the laws !
For example we must ensure that those who govern our country are not corrupt themselves and can therefore set a good example to the rest of society.Its really no good having an MP who "uses" our tax money to have the moat of his "second home" ---a castle in Scotland --- cleaned out at our expense -or the female MP who bought her relatives second homes ---or others who misuse taxpayers money, being seen by these crooks you speak of as kind of superior , above the law, swindlers and crooks themselves! So if instead these law makers could give a lead---and start by "desisting from the temptation " to filch tax payers money by a loophole in the law regarding their expenses claims and instead begin to set a decent example, at least to the small time "crooks" that you say you would have birched.
Each and every one of these law makers probably started out with better life opportunities and almost certainly today enjoy a far better standard of living than your average "crook"--so it shouldnt really come as a great surprise if the hoi polloi start to imitate them should it?

So lets begin with exemplary behaviour from the law makers..............

Cheers
Norma

[Robert]

Don't worry, Nats, you haven't heard what I'd do to the MPs!

But I don't think we can say that because some prats get away with all kinds of nonsense, therefore we should let everyone else off. We should tighten the screw on the MPs. We can at least make a start by not voting for them.

I suppose you noticed that when Mr Laws resigned - in order to clear his name, or whatever - he was entitled to a severance bonus of several thousand pounds. It may have been £20K, I can't remember. He voluntarily decided to forgo that payment. However, he had been in the job for about TWO WEEKS and so the question of his ability to claim it should not have arisen.

[Natalie Severn]

It really is outrageous .Its the damn cheek they have that gets me too.
Night
Robert

[Robert]

Good night Nats. If you can't get to sleep, count MPs jumping over a watchdog.