Burka

[Rubyretro]

I live in France and this thread prompted me to sound out some of my Moslem friends and neighbours (I live in a quarter with a high North African
population), and they and I were agreed that :

-There is nothing in the Koran to make women wear a burka..or even a headscarf

-the vast majority of women wearing burkas (estimated at a mere 2000 here)are forced to do so by their husbands (who grow beards !).

-it is not an act of piety, but rather an act of political provocation directed at the French State, and the West in general (Jihad). It is an act designed to create racial tensions and divisions in the community.

About 80% of French people are in favour of a ban -it unites the rascist
far Right, and the far Left (who see it as giving leverage to a woman to be able to resist her husband by evoking the Law, and bringing financial pressures on the family because she could no longer work or drive if she complied with his demand).

A woman was recently fined for wearing a burka when driving and it provoked riots -I think that was the desired effect ; it is obvious that it is dangerous to drive in a full burka, and it was bound to attract the attention of traffic
police.

Personally speaking, I am for the ban; One law (going back to Napolean)
separated the French State from the Church, and so ouvert religious symbols are banned in schools...we have no Assembly, and you are not allowed to wear Moslem headscarves (although the school canteen would serve a pork
free dinner), Jewish skullcaps, obvious Christian crosses, or any other symbol.
I cherish this law -everyone is free to believe whatever they want, but you don't ram it down other people's throats nor promote segregation if you want to avail your children of an excellent, free, French education.

I would hope that banning the burka would give the same message -sadly though, by fining women who were probably forced to wear it, they would find themselves in the 'firing line' twice...and we can expect more riots..

ps: the passing of this proposed Law has been postponed..

Edit: At it's basic form the Burka is a form of Tribal dress (as are all our clothes). Wearing the Burka is like denoting yourself as not belonging to the French 'Tribe', indeed wishing to create trouble for it,
whilst benfitting from all it's advantages.

[Bob Hinton]

Ban it

The wearing of a burka should be banned in Britain as it is contrary to our culture. In days gone by two armoured warriors meeting could guess at the others intentions by the way they wore their armour. If they had the visor lowered it signified they expected to fight. The act of raising the visor signified the opposite and the action later became the salute.

Western people equate an uncovered face with safety and the reverse is true.

There is also the security aspect whereby having someone who cannot under any circumstances be identified is just simply wrong. I understand two suspected bombers left the country wearing the burka.

If Muslims do not agree with respecting our culture then they should leave, after all in their country we are forced to respect theirs. We hear far too much about respecting other peoples culture and absolutely nothing about them respecting ours.

I do not want to see these people wandering down the streets of Britain in exactly the same way I don’t want to see the KKK in full robes doing the same.

[caz]

However, in other ways, the motive for wearing it is kind of disrespectful to men because it implies men cannot be trusted to see an attractive woman without desiring her.

I think that may be more in our minds than theirs, Limehouse. In any case, if it was man who first put his woman in a burka, it would imply that he knew what men were like and didn't trust them. It is, after all, the male's biological must-have, to fancy the burka off the female of the species.

The point is surely, that all women should be able to trust men to behave themselves while still desiring - from a safe distance. I don't believe that women who wear a burka do so because they assume they are irresistible to men. Some are going to have faces and bodies that only a mother could love.

While it is my firm belief that women should be able to wear what we damn well like, wherever we are in the world, and there should be no laws to stop us doing so, we are responsible for the reaction we cause by our appearance, if we are well aware what that reaction is likely to be, and we go ahead regardless. In any civilised society, we should be able to choose our religion, choose our husband and choose our clothes. But we can't choose where we were born and we can't always choose where we live.

Women who have the choice, and choose to wear the full burka, should at least bear in mind that there are women stuck in other countries and cultures, who don't have the luxury of choice and have to wear it against their will. As a powerful symbol of male on female repression, it does send out mixed messages when women adopt the symbol of their own accord for some other reason. Their reasons may be their own business, but people will make assumptions and you can't stop them. Maybe the women who wear it by choice (for modesty or to stop men ogling or whatever) could make a stand for the women who don't have that choice, by picking a certain colour that would communicate to everyone a "right on" message.

But as Rubyretro says, women get slapped twice if they are punished by the law for being forced by their husbands to wear the thing. That has got to be the wrong way to deal with this perceived 'problem'.

Love,

Caz
X

[Robert]

I'd let them wear it in the street unless there were security implications.

As for private places, that should be up to the owner of the place. A shopkeeper should be allowed to ban the burka in his shop. For that matter, he should be free to refuse to serve whites, blacks, Asians, travellers, people with a mole on their chin or anyone else he doesn't want to serve. It's his shop.

One of the unpleasant characteristics of our governments is their inability to distinguish between public and private. When they banned smoking in public places, they actually banned it in many private places - unless the government, through a secret act of socialist nationalisation, somehow managed to acquire every pub in the land without anyone knowing?

On a lighter note, it occurs to me that the burka is the female answer to Yul Brynner. Just as Yul Brynner never needed to worry about going grey or going bald - because no one would ever know - so the burka wearers needn't worry about their figure. They can scoff as many chocs as they like.

I hope it stops with the burka, though. If they decide they must cover their eyes as well, they'll need a periscope sticking out the side in order to see where they're going.

[caz]

Hi Robert,

Although a pub is a public house, I always thought the landlord had the right not to serve someone without needing a reason for turning them away - same for shops. But maybe the law has changed on that one?

My local post office has a notice on the door about kids in school uniform only being allowed in one at a time, for instance.

I still don't like the idea of making things even worse for the woman with the bad luck to have been married off to a man who won't let her out with more than her eyes showing.

Love,

Caz
X

[Robert]

Hi Caz

Yes, in my area there are newsagents who only allow in three schoolkids at a time, etc.

It might be that pubs and shops can refuse to serve without giving a reason, but if it turns out they are discriminating, I think they're for the high jump. Similarly with job interviews.

There was a case recently where a hotel landlady refused to give a room to two gay men. They complained, and the last I heard the police were looking into it (into the case, not the room).

[Rubyretro]

Two interesting facts Robert :-

-All the burka wearers that I have ever seen appear to be either rotund or rectangular under their togs...

(the second point has nothing to do with the thread...but why is it that I've never seen any young or fit women on a nudist beach ? Nor young, fit, heterosexual men for that matter ?).

Points to ponder..

[Robert]

Well Ruby, I was often forced to stand in the corner at school, and to this day my head is triangular.

[claire]

Actually, many women in Muslim countries *are* taught that they will be responsible for any untoward events that follow a man becoming insensible with desire after seeing a woman that is not properly covered up. So it's not entirely accurate to suggest that such women don't believe that they are capable of arousing wild passions in any or every passing man--many certainly do (because a pair of uncovered swarthy hands will do it, every time).
By the same token, although men may be viewed as creatures governed by a lust that will awake at the unbidden sight of a pair of eyebrows, this all goes back to the view that men are all-powerful (hence that idiot statement by an Iranian cleric a few months back about uncovered women causing earthquakes, because the swell of male desire would be so great it would cause the very firmament to rupture).
So if the world implodes, it's because women have showed their forearms.

It's a nonsensical view--if Scientologists started insisting their children wore aerials on their heads, or that phoenix cult (whatever it's called) insisted that their followers burned themselves to death, someone would step in. But we've become so bloody terrified of Islam, as we appear to believe it will destroy all our liberal credentials (what a paradox), that this appears to be a debatable issue.
Qatari women (for eg., and only because I lived there for a few years) are required to wear an abaya, hejab and niqab (the face covering--don't forget that the burqa is an all-in-one, generally blue, garment with a mesh panel for the eyes: it's the one favoured in Afghanistan, but is different from the black niqab/abaya get-up worn by Wahabi muslims)...this has slipped a little recently for some, since the Emir's second wife doesn't bother. But they are also encouraged to wear them when they travel--fine in Knightsbridge, but it was a hell of a problem for two women in Mexico City for a UN workshop, who got into quite a nasty situation. The point is, administrations who encourage (read: coerce [since you're viewed as less of a Muslim if you don't comply]) women to put themselves in risky situations--including the driving one--ought really to be stamped on pretty hard. It's a sad old day to admit that we put up with them because we need their cash and cooperation.

[Rubyretro]

A new business opportunity anyone:

-the 'hourglass shaped burka' -with lycra 'control panels', '50s inspired conical bra, subtle shoulder pads, and a 'wiggle' derrière ?....??

edit: the 'slogan' burka ?.."this is not a burka"..?

...a line of 'Celebrity Burkas' ? (any suggestions ?)

...maybe rent space to advertisers...?

...the cream model for burka wearing apiarists ?

[Rubyretro]

cntd: (my empire is growing) :
the Designer Burka, which is from the same factory as the others but has a
rhinestone 'double c' or D&G on it, and costs several hundreds of £s more..?

The Victoria Beckham Burka in size 0-4 ?

The Primark Burka in polyester with the double C's back to front and the
'rhinestones' falling off ?

The Fairtrade organic edible burka ?

The computerised print trompe l'oeil Burka -which has a giant Cheryl Cole in a bikini front and back

think I will call my business BeurkMode

[claire]

Sorry, rubyretro, but I'm afraid people are ahead of you (Nobless Oblige has a concession in Harrods selling contoured abaya)...and the designer bling abaya is as old as Everything from Chanel to Ed Hardy; it's good stuff

loving the Primark abaya idea, though, lol

[Rubyretro]

PS if anyone is thinking of ordering one, BeurkMode is opening a waiting list..

-know that the cream version is particularly economical, as besides being perfect for beekeeping it will handily double up for 'fencing' (in every sense of the word).

-as I think that 'classic design' is often the most chic -I am experimenting
with ideas using ultra modern heat sensitive fabrics, which should change colour where the fabric clings to the body.

[Rubyretro]

Oh S*** Claire ! another brilliant idea trumped..the last one I thought of was sliced baguettes..
...back to the drawing board..


...but have they produced a rubber, diving Burka eh ?????????? (tell me)
...or a paragliding Burka with built in parachute ?
...or a hiking Burka that converts into a tent ??

(BeurkMode is not dead yet !)

[claire]

Marvellous...I'm fond of the rubber burqa idea...and one that comes with its own ground sheet.
SAS burqas, too. Excellent!
I'm afraid that I did once buy one, in Qatar...it came in very handy for Hallowe'en.