Manchester

[John G]

They're polls readily available through internet searches. Find them yourself. Just as I'm not here to put you in touch with reality, I'm also not here to do use the googler machine for you. Or, you could just read some of Sam Harris' work. He's certainly no Trumpite. But, if I'm sure you view him as someone focusing on "alternative truth"! "Trumpite alternative truth" is a nice phrase! Although this has nothing to do with Trump and my feelings are more in line with Sam Harris and Bill Maher and even - it seems - Morrisey and Peirs Morgan, than Donald Trump, I'm glad you're focus is on the right things: Trump. Republicans. Fox News. As I said, Lenin had it right. Although, I'd suggest you can loath Trump as any rational person should and see events like this for what they are. But, I know that's too complicated for some people these days. Gotta keep you're priorities in order, after all.

Trumpite alternative truth! Can't tell you how fantastic that is. Brilliant. And far more terrifying and evil sounding than phrases like "Muslim suicide bomber", and "Islamic Terrorists flying planes into buildings", and "Muslims who dive trucks into parades", and Muslims who detonate bombs at marathons", and "Guy who blows himself him up at a teeny bopper concert". I get it. I get it. ALL isolated events that say nothing at all about Muslims or Islam. To infer anything like that is "racist and gross". Even though Muslims aren't a race, it's fun to use that term. Racist! Hurts to so good, right? Not as catchy as Trumpite alternative truth. But still a zinger. Well done.

I don't think I accused you of being a racist, Patrick. And do you seriously believe I consider Trump to be in the same category as a suicide bomber? As for Google searches, what about the one that revealed a poll in which 95 % of British Muslims said they were proud to be British?

And what about this poll, which reveals that 14% of Irish nationalists in Northern Ireland, i.e. Catholics, said they had sympathy for two terrorist groups-the Real IRA and the Continuity IRA: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/uk-...eland-11482372

On that basis are you now going to campaign to ban Irish Catholics from American soil?

[Admin]

No.

We are not going to take yet another tragedy and turn it into a haven for political hatred and rhetoric.

Do not push your political agenda further. Do not mention Trump's name, do not start the bullshit.

Almost two dozen people are dead, many of them young, teenage girls.

DO NOT discuss political bullshit further on this thread.

Trump is a disgusting piece of ****, there is no question, but we are done having every single thing be an excuse for everyone to go to their corners and hurl insults from opposite sides of the room.

Do not do it on this thread. In fact, don't do it any more period on this board. There are twenty thousand places on the internet where you can go scream at one another about Trump. The people who still support him aren't going to see reason because you point out yet another example of his deceit and the people who think he's a human garbage pile aren't going to be swayed by screechings of "Fake News!" and "Liberal bias!" and all the other BS.

This is a thread about young women being targetted in a terrorist attack.

Respect that.

[Flower and Dean]

This is absolutely tragic. It's sad to think that there were many kids enjoying their first show and having fun with their friends, and then this happens. What an horrible situation for everyone.

In the middle of all this, it gives me hope to see some of the nicer stories like people pulling together to help lost kids and support families. It goes to show how these situations bring out both the worst and the best about people.

Now I'm out of this thread because it's very sad to see that here, just like offline, sometimes people feel the need to use a painful situation to further their political agenda. Nevermind that scaring people into being angry and hurtful and put politics over human decency is exactly what terrorists want.

[andy1867]

This is absolutely tragic. It's sad to think that there were many kids enjoying their first show and having fun with their friends, and then this happens. What an horrible situation for everyone.

In the middle of all this, it gives me hope to see some of the nicer stories like people pulling together to help lost kids and support families. It goes to show how these situations bring out both the worst and the best about people.

Now I'm out of this thread because it's very sad to see that here, just like offline, sometimes people feel the need to use a painful situation to further their political agenda. Nevermind that scaring people into being angry and hurtful and put politics over human decency is exactly what terrorists want.

I agree totally mate....but I expect PEOPLE to use it to further their arguments on a message board, what I find woeful is that that politicians use it the self same way, you would think they would be above it and try and do something constructive..but they hardly ever do...Its all self serving twaddle.
22 innocent folk blown to bits by a madman, and here we stand "Shoulder to shoulder" with Manchester..We stood "Shoulder to shoulder" with Paris a while ago."Shoulder to shoulder " with Lyon, with Sweden, with Westminster....
Have we ever stood "Shoulder to shoulder" with Damascus?
Its a total mess,
Sadly amongst certain people they don't see this animal as a madman, they see him as a "Muslim", and its fast approaching that the radical elements of the opposite side will use that as an excuse for further trouble.
Its fermenting, and it will be hard to stop when it does actually kick off,
60 odd kids killed in Syria the other week?...We don't get wall to wall pictures, we don't interview the bereaved, we get 10 minutes on SSN..its just as bloody heinous isn't it?
The Muslims in this country, the vast majority must be getting a siege mentallity...Who can blame them?
They reported this bloody barbarian 5 times!..What else is expected of them...?
Here we stand "Shoulder to shoulder" all over the world while we get our bloody legs blown off

[Phil Carter]

....
Here we stand "Shoulder to shoulder" all over the world while we get our bloody legs blown off

Hello andy,

That has to be the most accurate comment on the aftermath of all this I've read. Because, both figuratively and literally, it is sadly all too true.

It is a position for all to be in that nobody is at ease with. Each new event of this nature furthers a united front on behalf of the victims, and a determination of enforced statement in the light of said unity on behalf of the perpetrators. As said enforcement gets stronger with a new episode, likewise the strength of unity in the united front against further episodes.

Someone said to me that to get to the core of all this, one has to cut off the head of the controlling "monster". I countered that should it happen, it would create a void, only to be filled by another group with another name hell bent on more destruction.

The irony is though, that to the militant individuals, they too are looking yo "cut off the head" of the people they see as oppressors. They must surely see as well, that the void created will be filled with others to take their place as well.

It is the same for both sides. And sadly..I cannot see an answer beyond a lot of destruction in the future. "Peace" is not a word on the agenda of the radicals. "Compromise" is not on the agenda of either side.

This poster sees a relevant comparison with the "troubles" of the fight against the British with the problem of Ireland. However, this time the "troubles" are world wide and not isolated. Many countries and governments are involved. Like Ireland..the vast majority of people want nothing to do with violence. But like Ireland and the provisional IRA, Isis are creating a large impression to BOTH sides. The results are what we are witnessing today..on both sides.

We are not the only ones standing shoulder to shoulder. And we are not the only ones getting our "legs blown off" either.

Profound. And sadly...all too true.




Phil

[Flower and Dean]

I agree totally mate....but I expect PEOPLE to use it to further their arguments on a message board

I was referring to the way this quickly went from a thread along the lines of honouring the victims to a thread debating Islam as a whole, with some of the people commenting on it just diving right into it.

Sadly amongst certain people they don't see this animal as a madman, they see him as a "Muslim", and its fast approaching that the radical elements of the opposite side will use that as an excuse for further trouble.

Sadly, I think some of the "further trouble" has already started. There have been things like hate crimes making the news in multiple countries, anti-Muslim opinions have gotten quite a bit of airtime in politics, etc..

And yes, I agree that the media exposure and solidarity that attacks get depends on where they're located, unfortunately.

[Spitfire]

I have absolutely no idea where you get these statistics from because you don't cite references. However, in a major survey of British Muslims 86% said they had a strong sense of belonging to Britain-higher than the national average. Whereas in sharp contrast 4% said they had any sympathy with people who took part in suicide bombings. See: http://www.channel4.com/info/press/n...s-really-think

Thanks JohnG

This has cheered me up immensely.

If I understand it correctly there are about 3 million muslims living in the UK and only 4% of which have any sympathy with Islamic suicide bombers. On delving further into the survey to which you link, I see that only 1% completely sympathise with suicide bombers.

I have done the maths (or math for our transatlantic cousins) and find that we only have 120,000 folk living amongst us who sympathise and 30,000 who completely sympathise. The question that this survey poses is not answered though, and that is, how many of the 30,000 would go further than sympathise and actively get involved in a terrorist plot?

Anyway the maximum number is only 30,000 which is about the size of the population of Gibraltar, or closer to home, Dunstable in Bedfordshire.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Whoever first commented that this thread began as a tribute to the victims but then fell into a debate about religious extremism and terrorism is, of course, correct. And in accordance with those sentiments we should have all (myself included) left those debates for another arena. I would just like to make one small but important point though if I can. Most people who comment on this issue, and I definately include myself in this, only do so because we have a genuine concern about the future and the chance of getting a world where everyone gets on with each other. Peace. This can only happen if everyone gets together in open discussion with no taboo subjects.But yes, this was perhaps not the time or place. If we just continue with the simplistic 'this is your fault,' 'no it's not,' scenario nothing will change. Most people, of whatever race, religion or non-religion are fundamentally decent people. Let's hope that some way can be found to break down barriers and begin talking.
Again, for being one of those who veered from the original sentiment of the thread, I apologise to all. It was done through concern and not hatred though.

Again, condolences to the victims families and friends.

Peace to all
HS

[Phil Carter]

Whoever first commented that this thread began as a tribute to the victims but then fell into a debate about religious extremism and terrorism is, of course, correct. And in accordance with those sentiments we should have all (myself included) left those debates for another arena. I would just like to make one small but important point though if I can. Most people who comment on this issue, and I definately include myself in this, only do so because we have a genuine concern about the future and the chance of getting a world where everyone gets on with each other. Peace. This can only happen if everyone gets together in open discussion with no taboo subjects.But yes, this was perhaps not the time or place. If we just continue with the simplistic 'this is your fault,' 'no it's not,' scenario nothing will change. Most people, of whatever race, religion or non-religion are fundamentally decent people. Let's hope that some way can be found to break down barriers and begin talking.
Again, for being one of those who veered from the original sentiment of the thread, I apologise to all. It was done through concern and not hatred though.

Again, condolences to the victims families and friends.

Peace to all
HS

Well said


Phil

[andy1867]

Whoever first commented that this thread began as a tribute to the victims but then fell into a debate about religious extremism and terrorism is, of course, correct. And in accordance with those sentiments we should have all (myself included) left those debates for another arena. I would just like to make one small but important point though if I can. Most people who comment on this issue, and I definately include myself in this, only do so because we have a genuine concern about the future and the chance of getting a world where everyone gets on with each other. Peace. This can only happen if everyone gets together in open discussion with no taboo subjects.But yes, this was perhaps not the time or place. If we just continue with the simplistic 'this is your fault,' 'no it's not,' scenario nothing will change. Most people, of whatever race, religion or non-religion are fundamentally decent people. Let's hope that some way can be found to break down barriers and begin talking.
Again, for being one of those who veered from the original sentiment of the thread, I apologise to all. It was done through concern and not hatred though.

Again, condolences to the victims families and friends.

Peace to all
HS

Indeed you are right mate...
I posted with little thought, mainly about aspects of it that concern me,
I was even crass enough not to offer condolences to the families, even though I have posted such in local Sheffield forums, no excuse, I apologise to any who thought it insensitive.

[Wickerman]

BBC World News is showing armed police, and military patrolling streets in the U.K.
What are they expecting, how does this show of force protect the public from some unknown imbecile in the middle of a crowd blowing himself up?

[Pcdunn]

I am as saddened by the deaths in Manchester as by any of the other terror attacks I have heard about, whether in the United States, England, France, Spain, Italy, Germany, Japan, Syria, or Egypt. And I remember the news from Northern Ireland in my youth, too.

My sympathies are with the families of the young victims who only went out to a music concert, just as the movie-goers killed in Aurora, Colorado by a mad college student were only looking for entertainment. And there are so many, many more of them, each a postage-stamp sized photo in neat rows in newspapers and magazines, killed in any number of ordinary places, doing ordinary things.

Today we learned of two men stabbed to death on a commuter train in Portland, Washington, because they tried to interfere with a white man who was harassing two women from the Middle East, one wearing her hijab. A third man who also came to the womens' rescue was injured, but has survived. The attacker is in jail, and has a history of crime and Neo-Nazi leanings.

The world needs more courageous people who act like these men, or the heroes at Manchester and the World Trade Center. We need to overcome our fear and have the courage to oppose hatred and injustice, everywhere.

May the victims of Manchester be remembered, and their families be consoled.

[jason_c]

BBC World News is showing armed police, and military patrolling streets in the U.K.
What are they expecting, how does this show of force protect the public from some unknown imbecile in the middle of a crowd blowing himself up?

We don't know that the threat is another suicide bombing. It could be a number of different threats, some of which armed police may be of help with. However, the authorities must above all look as if they are doing something. It's a bit like our PM calling a meeting of Cobra after any incident. Im sure meetings of Cobra can help but im sure too that they are a good piece of PR.

[andy1867]

https://youtu.be/kY49hMzz74E

[Sam Flynn]

https://youtu.be/kY49hMzz74E

Heartwarming. Thanks for that, Andy.