EU Vote

[Caligo Umbrator]

Hi, Caz.

Where did you work? I lived up in Crouch End/Wood Green area in the mid-eighties and met Corbyn a few times. I particularly remember his presence in the 1987 campaign. Terrific fellow; always seemed very genuine and honest in his politics but was sadly teetotal. On the other end of the spectrum, I also bumped into Bill Cash once. I wasn't one for his politics but he always made a good case for his views and happily, at that time at least, seemed pleased to indulge in a pint or two.


Yours, Caligo

[caz]

Hi Caligo,

I'm not supposed to say exactly where I worked, or who for, but I was in Croydon, south London, which affords a clue of sorts.

I never actually met any of the MPs related to my job, but I got to know which ones consistently put in the most time and effort to represent their constituents. I left in the summer of 1987 to have my daughter.

Corbyn is certainly an old-school conviction politician, and he was frowned upon by others in the party for not coming down firmly on one side or the other and sticking with it in the run-up to the referendum. I found that one of the most refreshingly honest things to admit - that he wasn't sure enough of the potential consequences to commit wholly to leave or remain. That would have been a more honest response from politicians of every hue, yet he is condemned as too wishy-washy to provide leadership.

Love,

Caz
X

[Limehouse]

I lived in Crouch End in the early 1980s and Jeremy Corbyn was then a local councillor. He was extremely hard working and dedicated - not only to local issues but to wider concerns such as CND and the campaign against Apartheid in South Africa. In 1983 he became a local MP and I continued to bump into him now and then as I worked in Camden, and later Archway, on various youth projects.

I completely agree with Caz when she points out that he was nothing but honest about his views on Europe. He has deep reservations about the way the EU is becoming more federal, about certain trade practices such as TTIP and about the drive towards privatisation which the EU, with its anti-monopoly rules, favours. On the other hand, the EU has encouraged, even demanded, fundamental rights for workers and individuals which he supports with a passion.

If people want a leader who will stand up in parliament and destroy the opposition with derision, with clever schoolboy puns and with spin and half truths, JC is not that leader. He is not that man. However, regardless of what some of the parliamentary Labour members are saying and doing, his track record with the electorate and his popularity with many members of the public who are not even traditional Labour supporters speaks for itself.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi Caligo,

I'm not supposed to say exactly where I worked, or who for, but I was in Croydon, south London, which affords a clue of sorts.

I never actually met any of the MPs related to my job, but I got to know which ones consistently put in the most time and effort to represent their constituents. I left in the summer of 1987 to have my daughter.

Corbyn is certainly an old-school conviction politician, and he was frowned upon by others in the party for not coming down firmly on one side or the other and sticking with it in the run-up to the referendum. I found that one of the most refreshingly honest things to admit - that he wasn't sure enough of the potential consequences to commit wholly to leave or remain. That would have been a more honest response from politicians of every hue, yet he is condemned as too wishy-washy to provide leadership.

Love,

Caz
X

I'll caveat this by saying I'm not a natural Labour voter, but I find it very hard to vote for the Conservative Party given my background in a mining area in the North East. So, I don't vote for either. I'd go as far as to say I can't stand Labour, but I also have a problem with social Conservatism.

That said, do you think Corbyn is more principled than say Cameron?

[Fleetwood Mac]

Of course it all went wrong when Boris Johnson decided to back the Brexit campaign, despite previously saying "I'm not an outer." Then again, after the result was declared he didn't appear very jubilant- in fact, he looked more like someone about to attend a funeral! Which, I think,tells you everything you need to know about his actual motives.

I think the issue is that as soon as the result was announced, he knew he had a place in government. Not necessarily as the Prime Minister, but a place in government all the same. And, so he adopted a more statesman like approach.

[caz]

I'll caveat this by saying I'm not a natural Labour voter, but I find it very hard to vote for the Conservative Party given my background in a mining area in the North East. So, I don't vote for either. I'd go as far as to say I can't stand Labour, but I also have a problem with social Conservatism.

That said, do you think Corbyn is more principled than say Cameron?

Hi FM,

All I would say is that Corbyn appears to me to be one the most principled personalities I have ever encountered in politics. Up there with Clement Attlee and Tony Benn.

I also think Cameron should have been a lot more careful what he wished for.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Of course it all went wrong when Boris Johnson decided to back the Brexit campaign, despite previously saying "I'm not an outer." Then again, after the result was declared he didn't appear very jubilant- in fact, he looked more like someone about to attend a funeral! Which, I think,tells you everything you need to know about his actual motives.

I think the issue is that as soon as the result was announced, he knew he had a place in government. Not necessarily as the Prime Minister, but a place in government all the same. And, so he adopted a more statesman like approach.

I suspect Boris looked boot-faced because he was suddenly confronted with the reality of having to do some serious hard daily grind for a change as a major Brexiter representing 52% of the voters. Cameron, having been disbelieved by the majority, could - had to - wash his hands of it.

Love,

Caz
X

[Mayerling]

The general consensus on the thread is that, as Cameron pushed for a national referendum on Brexit as a proof of his having majority support, it blowing up in his face and forcing him to relinquish No. 10 and the cat was deserved. If so, it is the oddest twist on "vote of confidence" politics since 1895, when the pathetic Prime Minister, Lord Roseberry (who wanted to get out of the office badly) used a relatively unimportant vote on cordite (an explosive used by the military) that was lost, as grounds to resign on a "lost vote of confidence"! It took everyone, including the Tory leader, Lord Salisbury, by surprise, but now the Tories and their Unionist allies were back in control of No. 10.

Jeff

[Robert]

Hi Jeff

I suspect that Cameron never imagined that the Labour Party would implode the way that it did, which (from a publicity point of view) tended to sideline them during the referendum debate. I suspect also that he didn't anticipate that 'big name' tories such as Gove and Johnson would come out for leaving.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi FM,

All I would say is that Corbyn appears to me to be one the most principled personalities I have ever encountered in politics. Up there with Clement Attlee and Tony Benn.

I also think Cameron should have been a lot more careful what he wished for.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz,

You wouldn't be left-wing by any chance and so have a favoured horse?

Corbyn isn't that principled as we all know he isn't a natural EU supporter seeing as his politics aren't aligned with the EU. Yet after years of saying: "Leave", when push came to shove he changed his tune and said "Remain" (with a luke-warm heart at that).

Cameron ensured there was a referendum on the matter, and considering the vote was to Leave then that alone is evidence that the people wanted a referendum, so fair play to him. What would you have preferred: Cameron playing politics to escape a referendum at the expense of the will of the public?

Cameron is not someone I would vote for on the grounds of a few reasons, but he is certainly no less principled than Corbyn.

[John Wheat]

Hi Caz,

You wouldn't be left-wing by any chance and so have a favoured horse?

Corbyn isn't that principled as we all know he isn't a natural EU supporter seeing as his politics aren't aligned with the EU. Yet after years of saying: "Leave", when push came to shove he changed his tune and said "Remain" (with a luke-warm heart at that).

Cameron ensured there was a referendum on the matter, and considering the vote was to Leave then that alone is evidence that the people wanted a referendum, so fair play to him. What would you have preferred: Cameron playing politics to escape a referendum at the expense of the will of the public?

Cameron is not someone I would vote for on the grounds of a few reasons, but he is certainly no less principled than Corbyn.

Cameron principled bullshit. The only reason he came up with the Referendum was as a vote winner. Cameron never expected people to vote leave. Corbin was put in a difficult position he has never been a supporter of the EU however the majority of his party wanted to remain in the EU.

Cheers John

[Fleetwood Mac]

Cameron principled bullshit. The only reason he came up with the Referendum was as a vote winner. Cameron never expected people to vote leave. Corbin was put in a difficult position he has never been a supporter of the EU however the majority of his party wanted to remain in the EU.

Cheers John

Wouldn't the definition of unprincipled be disavowing your beliefs for the sake of your career, as you suggest Corbyn did; whereas Cameron put his career on the line for the vote?

You left-wing lot are ****in' insane. Which is supported by the fact you're still marching 'round London in a vain attempt to have the vote changed.

[Svensson]

You left-wing lot are ****in' insane. Which is supported by the fact you're still marching 'round London in a vain attempt to have the vote changed.

That's not the consensus of the "Remain" camp though. the vast majority, and I do mean vast majority, accept the referendum result but this should not stop us from continuing to make the argument for EU support. Likewise, after an election you still have an opposition. They don't allow the government free reign for 5 years and sit on their hands.

Besides, I don't consider myself left-wing at all but a progressive. I don;t believe in taking steps backwards as a matter of principle and disapprove of the way the campaign has been fought by the Leave campaign with their shameless lies and inventions. In fact, I'm probably the only one here who is openly prepared to stick up for our existing institutions which is rare in a time when "status quo"-bashing is the fashion of the day (which is a separate discussion IMO but Brexit, Trump, Wilders and AfD are symptoms of this)

Latest example: Today's Daily Express front page. But then the Daily Express could be used just about any day to support this particular argument....

[John G]

I can see that it would be fair, but John it would be disastrous. Economic Historians will tell you that one reason the Great Depression lasted so long was the tariff walls that came up around the globe in the wake of the U.S. Smoot - Hawley Tariff of 1930 (one of the most misguided ideas in our history). The other tariff walls were built against us in retaliation.

Jeff

Yes, I agree. Of course, Donald Trump is threatening to adopt the same protectionist policies. For instance, he's intimated that he'll tear up NAFTA of he doesn't get what he wants, and has threatened to impose heavy tariffs on China and Mexico, because of what he sees as unfair competition. He's also stated that, if American companies relocate their factories abroad, then tariffs should be imposed on those goods.

However, this policy is likely to lead to spiralling inflation, as it amounts to an effective tax on imported goods. And, of course, other countries will retaliate which, as you say, is exactly what happened in the 1930s as a consequence of Smoot Hawley.

[John G]

I think the issue is that as soon as the result was announced, he knew he had a place in government. Not necessarily as the Prime Minister, but a place in government all the same. And, so he adopted a more statesman like approach.

I'm not sure Boris Johnson and statesman are compatible. Alright, he was okay as a panel game host, but Foreign Secretary? Mind you, at least he's made an effort to comb his hair!