EU Vote

[Pcdunn]

If what you are arguing is that the EU cannot function democratically and effectively without becoming a superstate - a United States of Europe - then I agree. In fact, it was clear back in 1975 that this would be the case. It is inevitable. Leave campaigners warned the public then that this would be the case. They were denounced as fascists and communists by the remainers, who swore that the idea of a superstate had never entered their heads. The precondition of course is that if the EU is to be a democratic superstate, its citizens must actually want this. We know the majority of the British don't, and I suspect the same holds true for many of the remaining countries. I would hope that there would be simultaneous referendums in all the remaining countries to see if these countries want such a superstate.

The United States of Europe is an intriguing idea, but I think it faces a different challenge than our American founding fathers experienced with uniting thirteen Colonies into one Republic. For one thing, the colonists more or less shared a common nationality and language (barring some Germans and Dutchmen), and while many people were uninterested in leaving England's control, many others thought it was a good idea.

Within Europe, there are several countries, with differing languages and long histories of rivalries, alliances, disagreements, and perhaps outright hatred of each other. The similarities are closer to the United Nations than the United States, I think.

[Robert]

Hi Pat

The tories are currently deciding between two women for their party leader. Whichever wins will be PM. When the next general election is held, then barring a sudden and remarkable swing to the smaller parties, the PM will either be the Leader of the Labour Party or the Leader of the Conservative Party. Even if no party gets an absolute majority, and there has to be a coalition with a smaller party, the PM will be from the larger party.

At present the Leader of the Labour Party is a man. This may change and, come the next election, the Labour Party may be led by a woman. In which case, the PM after the next election would be virtually certain to be a woman.

One might expect a woman in charge of a party to give more cabinet posts to women than male leaders have done, though this isn't by any means certain. If it does happen, it will mean that there are more credible women politicians able to throw their hats in the ring for future leadership elections.

[Pcdunn]

Thanks for the explanation, Robert. Then this could be a very historic decision, indeed. Good luck!

As for Mrs. Clinton, she's not out of the woods yet. The election is still a long way off, and anything may happen, especially as the party conventions haven't been held yet. I'm ambivalent, but would prefer a woman over the misogynist.

[Robert]

Hi Pat

Re the Americans :

They were like the EU in that they kept expanding as new areas were settled and new states signed up. The population, languages etc became more mixed as immigrants arrived. The only people they didn't seem to want were the Chinese, for some unknown reason.

America is a nation and has proved it on the battlefields. The EU has never had to fight a major war and my guess is that it would collapse like a house of cards.

Worth remembering that America changed and became the Hotel California : states could check in but never leave (US Civil War). If the EU lasts long enough - which I doubt - the same will apply.

[caz]

So, wait, we're now in a situation where both the USA and the U.K. may have a woman leader? Interesting!

Only in the UK because the men have abandoned ship, taking all the flotation devices with them.

The Brexiters might have been more careful what they wished for - unless of course their most ardent wish was for Theresa May or Andrea Leadsom to try and keep the boat afloat.

May backed the remain campaign and previously gave her full backing to gay marriage.

Leadnone didn't and didn't.

I'll get me coat.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

It will be interesting if the tory membership does select Theresa May to be party leader because she wanted us to remain in the EU, while 52% of the voting public suspected Cameron and his remain gang of lying through their teeth. I wonder what percentage of the tory membership voted leave?

Love,

Caz
X

[Fleetwood Mac]

The United States of Europe is an intriguing idea, but I think it faces a different challenge than our American founding fathers experienced with uniting thirteen Colonies into one Republic. For one thing, the colonists more or less shared a common nationality and language (barring some Germans and Dutchmen), and while many people were uninterested in leaving England's control, many others thought it was a good idea.

Within Europe, there are several countries, with differing languages and long histories of rivalries, alliances, disagreements, and perhaps outright hatred of each other. The similarities are closer to the United Nations than the United States, I think.

PCDunn,

The European Union is far, far more like the USSR than it ever will be like the USA.

I'll tell you what it is, a more discerning public such as the USA would have left a long, long time before we did.

Americans would never have accepted an institution such as the EU.

[Ginger]

But one needs to remember that the EU does not exist for the benefit of the UK but for all 28 member states. This is bound to suggest that the UK's particular influence is diluted on the European stage.

That's precisely the problem, not just for Britain, but for all the other countries involved in this slow-motion disaster.

[Svensson]

I don't see this as a problem. After all, every member state gets a set of regulation that they KNOW are valid in all other countries as well. Simple example: I want to buy fire-proof furniture. Fire-proof according to my understanding and according to the laws of the country that I live in. So this means that when I look at a sofa from Italy, I don't want to have to just take their word for it. I want to know that this is according to a BSI standard. And since I can not expect the BSI to certify Sofas from Italy, an EU certification is the next best thing. Otherwise, I don't think that Italian Sofas should be sold in the UK as I can't be sure that they are fire-proof. for my own piece of mind and also for my insurance. If my house burns down, I don't want the insurance company to be able to turn around and refuse paying up because I had furniture that was not sufficiently fire-proof. So a true single-market can only work when all goods and services produced in that single-market adhere to certain minimum standards. So the benefit of this system is that all member countries can fully trust the Goods and services of all partners within the Single Market.

[Svensson]

PCDunn,

The European Union is far, far more like the USSR than it ever will be like the USA.

I'll tell you what it is, a more discerning public such as the USA would have left a long, long time before we did.

Americans would never have accepted an institution such as the EU.

Why not? American citizens have accepted much more than the EU. They accepted (and what the EU does not offer):
- one government
- one army
- one language
- one taxation system (apart from sales tax which is deregulated)
- one health-care system (or multiples, but all are available everywhere)
- one nation

[caz]

The silence is deafening.

So where have all the Brexit politicians gone, just when the country needs them? Hmmm...

Love,

Caz
X

[Robert]

Svensson, I think the Americans 'accepted' one nation because they are - er - a nation. Being a nation isn't something one 'accepts' or signs up for.

[Robert]

I don't think one can expect Nigel to carry on, now that after years of work he's achieved his main purpose, especially with the death threats.

As for the others, they are not and never were true Brexiters - if they were, they would not be members of a Vichy party.

[Svensson]

I don't think one can expect Nigel to carry on, now that after years of work he's achieved his main purpose.

Yep, it's not like he is a George Washington or someone like that...

[Robert]

He's taken an axe to the EU tree - that's good enough for me.