EU Vote

[Wickerman]

This hopeless mess has been caused by Cameron promising a referendum he believed would not result in our exit from the EU and the egos of other 'make-it-up-as-they-go-along' politicians.

Yes I wondered if anyone remembered how this predicament arose. No doubt if things turn sour and Britain breaks up as a result then history will apply blame to the 'exit' camp and their revolutionary leaders, rather than the egotistical stand of one particular politician.

[Robert]

Actually, Jon, if Britain breaks up over Europe it will be because the Scots will have decided that their loyalties and interests diverge from the rest of the UK. Without the Scottish Remain majority, Brexit would have won by even more. In that situation, if the Scots want to go it alone, good luck to them. We have chosen to leave the EU, and cannot permit the tail to wag the dog.

[Graham]

I may be in a minority here, but I believe that Cameron did a pretty good job in his first term as PM, even as part of a coalition government. I also believe that he didn't think he could win the last election, and thus gave a promise to hold a referendum on EU membership, if he won. He did win, and I think it took him by surprise, especially as he won with a majority. He kept his word, we had a referendum, and according to 48% of the people who voted it has all gone tits up. Well, if Mr Beardie Jeremiah Corbin had inherited the roaring rhetoric of one or two of his more redoubtable predecessors (such as Bevin, Smith, Kinnock and, dare I say it, Foot), he might have persuaded more of his supporters (that is, if there are any left) to have voted remain. The sooner he's replaced as leader of the Labour Party the better, as he certainly did no favours for those who still support Labour.
I'm afraid that, once again, it's a question of senior politicians hopelessly mis-reading prevailing public opinion - the vast majority of people I know said they'd vote to Leave.

Still, there is I suppose a dim ray of hope that we might avoid Brexit - anyone who thinks we could at some future point re-negotiate our way back into the EU is dreaming. On the positive side, I seriously doubt if the UK will be the last member state to vote to leave the EU....we are being very, very closely watched.

Graham

[Limehouse]

I may be in a minority here, but I believe that Cameron did a pretty good job in his first term as PM, even as part of a coalition government. I also believe that he didn't think he could win the last election, and thus gave a promise to hold a referendum on EU membership, if he won. He did win, and I think it took him by surprise, especially as he won with a majority. He kept his word, we had a referendum, and according to 48% of the people who voted it has all gone tits up. Well, if Mr Beardie Jeremiah Corbin had inherited the roaring rhetoric of one or two of his more redoubtable predecessors (such as Bevin, Smith, Kinnock and, dare I say it, Foot), he might have persuaded more of his supporters (that is, if there are any left) to have voted remain. The sooner he's replaced as leader of the Labour Party the better, as he certainly did no favours for those who still support Labour.
I'm afraid that, once again, it's a question of senior politicians hopelessly mis-reading prevailing public opinion - the vast majority of people I know said they'd vote to Leave.

Still, there is I suppose a dim ray of hope that we might avoid Brexit - anyone who thinks we could at some future point re-negotiate our way back into the EU is dreaming. On the positive side, I seriously doubt if the UK will be the last member state to vote to leave the EU....we are being very, very closely watched.

Graham

I agree with most of what you have written Graham (except the bit about Cameron doing a good job and your analysis of Corbyn) and it is not so much that Brexit is as harmful as some believe - but that the politicians who believed in it didn't have a plan for moving forward if/when the people voted in favour of it.

What bothers me more than anything is that Brexit was being used by politicians to achieve an end to their own means whereas the public took it deadly seriously - leaving the politicians unprepared and with no clear plan. They looked, and still look, incompetent.

[Graham]

I agree with most of what you have written Graham (except the bit about Cameron doing a good job and your analysis of Corbyn) and it is not so much that Brexit is as harmful as some believe - but that the politicians who believed in it didn't have a plan for moving forward if/when the people voted in favour of it.

What bothers me more than anything is that Brexit was being used by politicians to achieve an end to their own means whereas the public took it deadly seriously - leaving the politicians unprepared and with no clear plan. They looked, and still look, incompetent.

Julie, as a pensioner I am appreciative of having an annual rise of 2.5% in state pension, way above the current inflation rate. I am also appreciative that Osborne has abolished tax on savings interest. Maybe I'm being slightly self-centered here, but that's life. Cameron is also a supporter of Aston Villa (or was, as I was until they got relegated last season).

I take issue with your statement that the public took the referendum deadly seriously - there was a bimbo on the box the day after the referendum who said, when asked why she voted Brexit, that 'she didn't really know, but I just did'. Sadly, she was not the only one. One week after the referendum, I have yet to find anyone who voted Brexit to actually admit that he or she considered the possible consequences. Frightening, really, but sorry to say a sad reflection of the times we live in.

Corbyn, let's be honest, ain't up to it, Julie. He may be a nice bloke with a horrible beard, but he is not 'leader of a major political party' material. Neither was Milliband. As a non-Labour voter, I actually had a good deal of respect and admiration for Neil Kinnock, and remain surprised that he didn't do better at the 1992 General Election (I can forgive him his triumphalism at Sheffield...) - until then, he was amazingly the longest-serving Leader Of The Opposition in British political history. He'd have had Jeremiah for breakfast with an egg and a fried tomato. Anyway, come this time next week, New Old Labour will have another leader who the members of the party can pour scorn on.

Graham

[Elamarna]

I may be in a minority here, but I believe that Cameron did a pretty good job in his first term as PM, even as part of a coalition government. I also believe that he didn't think he could win the last election, and thus gave a promise to hold a referendum on EU membership, if he won. He did win, and I think it took him by surprise, especially as he won with a majority. He kept his word, we had a referendum, and according to 48% of the people who voted it has all gone tits up. Well, if Mr Beardie Jeremiah Corbin had inherited the roaring rhetoric of one or two of his more redoubtable predecessors (such as Bevin, Smith, Kinnock and, dare I say it, Foot), he might have persuaded more of his supporters (that is, if there are any left) to have voted remain. The sooner he's replaced as leader of the Labour Party the better, as he certainly did no favours for those who still support Labour.
I'm afraid that, once again, it's a question of senior politicians hopelessly mis-reading prevailing public opinion - the vast majority of people I know said they'd vote to Leave.

Still, there is I suppose a dim ray of hope that we might avoid Brexit - anyone who thinks we could at some future point re-negotiate our way back into the EU is dreaming. On the positive side, I seriously doubt if the UK will be the last member state to vote to leave the EU....we are being very, very closely watched.

Graham

Graham

interesting post and I disagree with almost all of it, but of course most is about opinion,so there is no right or wrong.
However the comment about misreading public opinion and the vast majority of people you know wanted to leave is not what the result told us.

The vast majority did not vote to leave , a 4% majority did, that is not a vast majority, it is a very small one. and shows a country split in half.

steve

[Robert]

I don't like Corbyn or his politics, BUT :

The new Labour Party voting arrangements were introduced by the Labour Party itself, and in particular by the old guard - the pre-Corbyn-leadership Labour Party.

It seems to me that those who are opposed to Corbyn have a number of options, any of which would be honourable. They could :

1. Resign and join another party.
2. Resign and found another party.
3. Resign and then stand again for Labour, on a specifically anti-Corbyn ticket.
4. Campaign for Labour voters who think like them to join the party and outvote Corbyn's supporters in a leadership contest.
5. Resign and step down from frontline politics altogether.

Or they can do what they're doing now - bitching around, hobbling the party so that it can't properly oppose the tories, and making the party look even more of a laughing stock than the tories. That doesn't seem to me to be honourable at all.

[Graham]

Graham

interesting post and I disagree with almost all of it, but of course most is about opinion,so there is no right or wrong.
However the comment about misreading public opinion and the vast majority of people you know wanted to leave is not what the result told us.

The vast majority did not vote to leave , a 4% majority did, that is not a vast majority, it is a very small one. and shows a country split in half.

steve

Steve,

please read what I wrote. I said the vast majority of the people that I know said that they'd vote to leave. As a 70 year-old, I am led to believe that most of us in the 'pensioner class' voted to leave and, after speaking casually with my equally aged friends, that seems to be the case.

Graham

[Elamarna]

Steve,

please read what I wrote. I said the vast majority of the people that I know said that they'd vote to leave. As a 70 year-old, I am led to believe that most of us in the 'pensioner class' voted to leave and, after speaking casually with my equally aged friends, that seems to be the case.

Graham

Graham

I did and included that in my reply
however i was mainly responding to the point that the prevailing public opinion had been misread, the figures were used to suggest that view was not 100% correct.
When a vote is so close i do not believe that it was misread.

Guess it depended on where you were and what you believe in, my mother in london who is 83and her 3 friends all voted to remain.

no disrespect meant, just don't think the comment about public opinion was correct

steve

[Robert]

Some words from the Guardian to help its readers cope during this difficult time of trial :

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/30/why-remainers-finding-it-hard-to-deal-with-eu-referendum-result

[Wickerman]

Actually, Jon, if Britain breaks up over Europe it will be because the Scots will have decided that their loyalties and interests diverge from the rest of the UK. Without the Scottish Remain majority, Brexit would have won by even more. In that situation, if the Scots want to go it alone, good luck to them. We have chosen to leave the EU, and cannot permit the tail to wag the dog.

Hi Robert.

Would the Scots have fancied another referendum for Independence if there had been no Brexit vote?, and would there have been no Brexit vote if Cameron had not allowed this referendum on EU membership?

Cause and effect...

[Robert]

Hi Jon

Blame doesn't come into it. I believe that nations should be independent. If the Scots think they're a nation, then they should be independent. The only thing that baffles me is, why on earth would the Scots want their independence and yet want to be part of the EU. There seems to be something about the word 'independence' that they can't quite grasp.

[Wickerman]

Hi JonThe only thing that baffles me is, why on earth would the Scots want their independence and yet want to be part of the EU.

Do you think losing access to this might have something to do with it?

http://www.funding-portal.eu/

It was reported on BBC World News that a number of projects in Scotland were funded with money from the EU.

[Robert]

Perhaps, Jon. But of course there is no such thing as EU money. The EU is financed by the countries that compose it. The UK is a net contributor, so we're only getting back some of what we put in.

If Scotland were to be in the EU as a state in its own right, I imagine it would be a net receiver.

[Svensson]

Cornwall is another example of being a net receiver of EU money which was precisely necessary because Westminster had chronically underfunded that part of the U.K. In any case, that didn't stop them from voting out though.

I just wonder how much Sarah Gove's remark that "Rupert Murdoch instinctively dislikes Boris" has to do with Johnson so meekly waving the white flag. I mean why could he not stand and fight Gove and May? Or did he maybe realise that he can't fight Murdoch? Call me a cynic, but how much influence does someone like Murdoch really have in UK politics and how does he achieve that influence? Does he have a folder of juicy scandals on UK politicians and chooses to use them when he wants to or needs to?

Btw, I don't mind that much actually as I think Boris should go back to pursuing his career as a professional clown, one in which he certainly excelled in the past, but I find the exact circumstances of him stepping aside VERY strange.

Edit: was yesterday's headline in the sun, "Brexecuted!" a bit of a gloat and send-off from Rupert Murdoch?