Valerie Storie's 3 part story as published in 'Today' magazine, June 1962

[Graham]

Indeed, JH was in Rhyl during the second week of July. I mis-read my notes. No argument that he was in Liverpool on the 26th of July, as he was interviewed by police following a scuffle with two men outside a cafe. He also gave his real name to the police, somewhat unusually.

The thing is, the new bookie's was open by the 25th July, so had Hanratty been in Kinmel Street either at this time, or as he claimed on the 22-23 August, he would have seen the shop and the illuminated sign. Given that he very much liked a flutter, it is very likely he'd have mentioned these features as part of establishing his Ingledene alibi.

He recalled trying to sell a watch to Mr Kempt in Liverpool, but at no time did he mention Mr Dutton who claimed a young man tried to sell him a watch in Rhyl on 23 August. Mr Dutton did say that he probably wouldn't be able to recognise the man again, so his evidence would have been of doubtful worth. Hanratty wasn't the only young man trying to sell watches to people on the street in 1961.

Graham

[NickB]

He recalled trying to sell a watch to Mr Kempt in Liverpool

Hanratty said: 'the man outside the billiards hall in Lime Street is always there, he stands on the steps". He would not have known this from personal experience, so it is indicative that he is repeating someone else’s story.

When Hanratty phoned Acott from Liverpool he could not provide Acott with anyone who saw him in Liverpool during the murder week apart from the friends he would not name.

Acott: Is there any other person who could say he saw you in Liverpool after you travelled there from the Vienna?
Hanratty: No.
Acott: Can you tell me any place you went to during those five days in Liverpool or anything you bought that might help me check your story?
Hanratty: No.

It seems that Hanratty then asked his friends if they had any experiences that could be passed off as his.

[Graham]

Hanratty said: 'the man outside the billiards hall in Lime Street is always there, he stands on the steps". He would not have known this from personal experience, so it is indicative that he is repeating someone else’s story.

It seems that Hanratty then asked his friends if they had any experiences that could be passed off as his

Quite possible, Nick. However, JH was in Liverpool both before and after the murder week, so it is also possible that he himself saw Mr Kempt, who regularly stood outside his billiards hall throughout the day. He stated that he had no idea of the day, date or month, except that it was in the evening when a young man came up the steps and asked if he would buy a watch.

One rather odd aspect of the whole alibi question is JH's inability to locate Terry Evans during his claimed visit of 22-24 August. He couldn't even recall Evans' real name to his defence, but called him 'John'. Evans was a very well-known local character who drove an old London taxi and who had a star tatooed on his forehead. JH had stayed in his house (and nicked a pair of his shoes) for one night during his July visit to Rhyl. And yet he claims he couldn't find Evans again less than a month later? Strange how when JH knew that the police wished to interview him about the A6 he scarpered to Liverpool arriving on 7 October, and was able to go straight to his criminal acquaintances there with no trouble at all, in order to offer them a bribe to confirm his 'alibi'.

Graham

[NickB]

On another matter ...

Do you know when Acott visited Fisher/Slack?

Woffinden says it was between when Hanratty was arrested and interviewed. This cannot be true as Acott spent that time driving up to Blackpool. The statement from Fisher, in which he denied having any discussion about guns, is dated 26-Oct. So I think it likely that Acott did not interview him until then.

On 11-Oct Acott had visited Lanigan who told him that he discussed with Hanratty getting guns to do a hold up in Wembley. This would have been fresh in Acott’s mind when he interviewed Hanratty the following day.

What may have happened is that Acott dropped hints that he had been speaking to a friend of his who had told him about a gun discussion (meaning Lanigan) and Hanratty jumped to the conclusion that he meant Fisher. Acott then got an admission of two gun discussions for the price of one, so to speak.

[uncle_adolph]

The thing is, the new bookie's was open by the 25th July, so had Hanratty been in Kinmel Street either at this time, or as he claimed on the 22-23 August, he would have seen the shop and the illuminated sign. Given that he very much liked a flutter, it is very likely he'd have mentioned these features as part of establishing his Ingledene alibi.
Graham

I'm sure I read somewhere that whilst the bookies was opened in late July the illuminated sign wasn't put up until some weeks later. There was certainly some doubt raised about it being there when Hanratty said he visited.

[Sherlock Houses]

Indeed, JH was in Rhyl during the second week of July. I mis-read my notes. No argument that he was in Liverpool on the 26th of July, as he was interviewed by police following a scuffle with two men outside a cafe. He also gave his real name to the police, somewhat unusually.

The thing is, the new bookie's was open by the 25th July, so had Hanratty been in Kinmel Street either at this time, or as he claimed on the 22-23 August, he would have seen the shop and the illuminated sign. Given that he very much liked a flutter, it is very likely he'd have mentioned these features as part of establishing his Ingledene alibi.

He recalled trying to sell a watch to Mr Kempt in Liverpool, but at no time did he mention Mr Dutton who claimed a young man tried to sell him a watch in Rhyl on 23 August. Mr Dutton did say that he probably wouldn't be able to recognise the man again, so his evidence would have been of doubtful worth. Hanratty wasn't the only young man trying to sell watches to people on the street in 1961.

Graham

I think you've repeated the error inadvertently, Graham, by missing the word 'not' out in your first sentence.

As stated previously, Raymond Corbett, manager of the betting shop at the time, said that the illuminated sign was erected a few weeks after August 4th and he was unable to find out if it was up before or after August 22nd. A few weeks after August 4th could mean late August or even early September. Inconclusive evidence certainly.

James's brother, Michael, told me that as far as he knew James didn't use street betting shops, it was only greyhound racing that he betted on and he did this in person at the greyhound stadiums he frequented.

As for Hanratty apparently not telling his defence team about trying to sell the gold watch to Mr Dutton, it is very likely that Mr Dutton was just one of several people he approached on Rhyl High Street trying to sell the stolen watch to.

Mr Dutton I find a very impressive witness, he was certainly no publicity seeker. He was able to pinpoint the date of his encounter with the young man. While it 's probably true that other young men would have been trying to sell watches on the streets of Britain in 1961, how many, sounding "possibly Irish or cockney or a mixture of the two " [Mr Dutton's own words] would have been trying to sell a gold watch in Rhyl High Street on Wednesday, August 23rd 1961, dressed in "a two-toned, dark grey and light grey suit." ?

What is also impressive about Mr Dutton is that although he couldn't [apart from the suit] describe the young man he believed that if presented with Hanratty he would be able to say that he'd never seen him before or that he was the young man who offered to sell him a gold watch.

[Graham]

I did miss out the word 'not', you're correct.

With regard to Hanratty having an "Irish or Cockney accent" or "a mixture of the two", nowhere in any of the literature concerning the A6 have I read that Hanratty had anything other than an accent typical of a young Londoner at that time*. In other words, he had no trace of an Irish accent. Mr Dutton was, doubtless, swayed by press publicity concerning Hanratty's Irish parentage and also the fact that Hanratty is an Irish name. Anything but an impressive witness, I'd say.

*JH's defence arranged for him to be examined by Prof. Dennis Fry of the Phonetics Dept at University College, London. Here's what Prof Fry said:

In my opinion his speech is in every way typical of a man with his background and upbringing; his pronunciation is that of a boy of low educational attainment brought up in London. I could not detect any feature in his pronunciation which could be regarded as a personal peculiarity. His mode of speech was shared by very many thousands of Londoners

Graham

[OneRound]

Hi Graham,

I agree with you about Dutton being some distance short of an impressive witness. However, in view of Prof. Fry's comment that Hanratty's ''mode of speech was shared by very many thousands of Londoners'', I can't but consider it unfair that none of them (apparently) were alongside Hanratty on the identification parade in which voice recognition played such a significant part.

Best regards,

OneRound

PS Julie - thanks for alerting us to the death of Valerie Storie on the other thread. If possible, can you please correct the spelling of her surname in that thread's title - just feel in my nitpicking way that we somehow owe her that, thanks.

[Graham]

Hello OR,

a fair point, but did the police know before they started seeking volunteers for the ID parade that Valerie would be asking them to speak? I honestly don't know. If anyone apart from Valerie knew, then it would have been Kleinmann, Hanratty's solicitor. Again, I wouldn't know if it was his duty to inform the police.

Graham

[OneRound]

Cheers, Graham.

I would have thought the most likely explanation for Valerie Storie requiring the men on the ID parade to speak was because she had been told of that right by Acott or one of the senior policemen organising that parade. Rather than being pro-active and doing his utmost on his client's behalf, Kleinmann appears to have been staggeringly inert here.

Best regards,

OneRound

[Spitfire]

The modern rules on ID parades can be found in Annex B to Code D of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984. Paragraphs 10 and 18 would appear to be relevant if the parade had been held today.


10. If the suspect has an unusual physical feature, e.g., a facial scar, tattoo or distinctive hairstyle or hair colour which cannot be replicated on other members of the identification parade, steps may be taken to conceal the location of that feature on the suspect and the other members of the identification parade if the suspect and their solicitor, or appropriate adult, agree. For example, by use of a plaster or a hat, so that all members of the identification parade resemble each other in general appearance.

and

18. If the witness wishes to hear any identification parade member speak, adopt any specified posture or move, they shall first be asked whether they can identify any person(s) on the identification parade on the basis of appearance only. When the request is to hear members of the identification parade speak, the witness shall be reminded that the participants in the identification parade have been chosen on the basis of physical appearance only. Members of the identification parade may then be asked to comply with the witness’ request to hear them speak, see them move or adopt any specified posture

Code D

[NickB]

Some links to photos ...

Gun and cartridge box There are photos on this site of an Enfield .38, but I cannot find one of the actual gun. Apologies if there is.

Outside the prison on the day of hanging

Janet Gregsten with her two sons

Janet and Michael Gregsten Note that Michael is wearing the same clothes in the photo in the Today article on the first page of this thread.

Gladys Deacon arriving at the trial and afterwards

Ingeldene with the name clearly visible!

[caz]

Mr Dutton I find a very impressive witness, he was certainly no publicity seeker. He was able to pinpoint the date of his encounter with the young man. While it 's probably true that other young men would have been trying to sell watches on the streets of Britain in 1961, how many, sounding "possibly Irish or cockney or a mixture of the two " [Mr Dutton's own words] would have been trying to sell a gold watch in Rhyl High Street on Wednesday, August 23rd 1961, dressed in "a two-toned, dark grey and light grey suit." ?

What is also impressive about Mr Dutton is that although he couldn't [apart from the suit] describe the young man he believed that if presented with Hanratty he would be able to say that he'd never seen him before or that he was the young man who offered to sell him a gold watch.

But no mention of this particular young man being heavily freckled? Now that might have impressed me.

Love,

Caz
X

[Graham]

The modern rules on ID parades can be found in Annex B to Code D of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984. Paragraphs 10 and 18 would appear to be relevant if the parade had been held today.


10. If the suspect has an unusual physical feature, e.g., a facial scar, tattoo or distinctive hairstyle or hair colour which cannot be replicated on other members of the identification parade, steps may be taken to conceal the location of that feature on the suspect and the other members of the identification parade if the suspect and their solicitor, or appropriate adult, agree. For example, by use of a plaster or a hat, so that all members of the identification parade resemble each other in general appearance.

and

18. If the witness wishes to hear any identification parade member speak, adopt any specified posture or move, they shall first be asked whether they can identify any person(s) on the identification parade on the basis of appearance only. When the request is to hear members of the identification parade speak, the witness shall be reminded that the participants in the identification parade have been chosen on the basis of physical appearance only. Members of the identification parade may then be asked to comply with the witness’ request to hear them speak, see them move or adopt any specified posture

Code D

Thanks for this, Spitfire. Do you know if those rules applied in 1961?

Re: [10], I believe that Acott suggested that all members of the parade wear 'surgeons caps' to cover their hair, with ref: to JH's odd colour, but that Kleinmann apparently didn't think this necessary. I don't have my books with me, so can't check this at the moment.

I interpret [18] to mean that a member of the ID parade need not speak if asked to. Am I correct?

Graham

[Spitfire]

Hello Graham,

I think these rules were formalised in the PACE in 1984 but there must have been similar rules/guidelines in existence before then, but what they were I know not.

There is discussion in the Court of Appeal in 2002 about the identification summing up but the actual parade and fairness of it does not seem to be discussed. Indeed, the court took the view that Hanratty's brightly coloured Barnet was an advantage to him, as the murder suspect did NOT have brightly coloured hair. I am not sure if the logic of that stands detailed scrutiny.

It should be noted, however, that in neither the 1962 nor 2002 appeal was it alleged that there had been a breach of any rule then in force with regard to the ID parade. Further, Hanratty had his solicitor present who could have raised objections had he felt the parade was being conducted in a manner prejudicial to Hanratty.

As to paragraph 18, I agree than if a member of the parade does not want to speak, he is under no obligation to do so. I am not sure what inference would be drawn if that member was the suspect rather than a 'control'.