The attack on Swedish housewife Mrs Meike Dalal on Thursday, September 7th 1961

[caz]

Caz-Scotland Road is just round the corner from Lime Street Station! You can walk up to Mrs Dunwoody's shop in less than 12 minutes!nx

But Hanratty's supposed purpose was to go to Carlton or Tarleton Road, not Mrs D's sweet shop in Scotland Road! Did her shop double up as 'Directions Are Us'? He only went there seeking directions to somewhere else, so why not hail a taxi from the station to locate his cronies?

Love,

Caz
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[Natalie Severn]

And your point is?

Would have thought it was pretty obvious.

[Ed James]

I think that now is a good time to take stock.

.

Hi Spitfire

I think it right to try and summarise but perhaps you roll up too many different and contradictory elements in your stocktake.

Unlike Caz, I don't think the basic proposition is implausible of Ewer seeking to frighten a weak, impressionable Gregsten to end the illicit relationship. Certainly no more implausible than ,say, a house burglar/car thief with poor attention span, tooled up for the first time, coming across a Morris Minor and just having a mask to hand and thinking I'll have some fun. Then holding the couple hostage for 5 hours after a purposeless drive across the country.

But we need to be careful about what is erected on the basic proposition and points needed to be critically tested , not dismissed by simple assertion.

I wouldn't give credence to the suggestion of a plan to kill Gregsten from the outset , nor one to incriminate Hanratty from the start ( yes, use some of his broad experiences as a useful model when speaking to the pair but no intent to have him charged).

Trying to put Alphon into the mix is problematic in my view. I'll give two reasons. First, as you say, planting the cartridges in the Vienna would have risked bringing Alphon into the frame. Secondly, I think the gunman was more accomplished than either Alphon or Hanratty - based upon the rapid two shots fired into poor Gregsten from the spurless 0.38 tank gun and the 'line' of bullets fired into Valerie Storie.

Whether or not as an individual the basic proposition is considered plausible, can elements be tested. For example, how would the 'commissioner' and those enlisted know enough about the couple's movements, or at what point would things become so hot for the perpetrators that the planting of the cartridges become a necessity, and is there anything to suggest that the perceived 'heat ' was so much that a distressed France needed to go to the police with the back seat of the bus story.

regards

Ed

[Natalie Severn]

And your point is?

Again, what purpose would the Frances have thought was served by taking the trouble to transport Hanratty's hanky to the bus?

How about the most obvious;Charlotte France had been washing Hanratty's hankies.He had left some of his dirty laundry with her which she washed and ironed.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Nats,

The reason Hanratty gave for not mentioning his stay in Rhyl on the murder night, but lying about being in Liverpool instead, was that he thought at the time that the police merely wanted to 'interview' him
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That was not the reason he gave Caz .

[caz]

Hi Caz,

Did you know that blood was on the hanky that was tested and proved to be animal blood?

Did you know that Charlotte France's brother in law who worked with slaughtered animals in a butchers shop brought Charlotte her meat each week?

Did you know also that a gun was kept at the very top of the airing cupboard in France's flat in a rolled up white butchers bag?

It is small clues like this you need to incorporate into the framing -again pinned on Hanratty at the time after the shocking murder-

And your point is?

Again, what purpose would the Frances have thought was served by taking the trouble to transport Hanratty's hanky to the bus? It was not shown to be his until the DNA from his mucous matched his remains, and the Frances had no reason in 1961 to believe it ever would.

Love,

Caz
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[Natalie Severn]

at Lime St station, he wouldn't have needed to go up Scotland Road in the first place.
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Caz-Scotland Road is just round the corner from Lime Street Station! You can walk up to Mrs Dunwoody's shop in less than 12 minutes!nx

[Natalie Severn]

The thing about the hanky is that back in 1961 nobody had 'trademark' snot, which could have been used to identify and thereby frame the owner of the offending article. Apart from the hiding place being one which Hanratty admitted to using himself, when disposing of unwanted loot and so on, there was nothing about the hanky that could have served to incriminate him, so taking it from the laundry and putting it on the bus with the gun would have been a completely pointless exercise from the point of view of anyone seeking to frame him.

Hi Caz,

Did you know that blood was on the hanky that was tested and proved to be animal blood?

Did you know that Charlotte France's brother in law who worked with slaughtered animals in a butchers shop brought Charlotte her meat each week?

Did you know also that a gun was kept at the very top of the airing cupboard in France's flat in a rolled up white butchers bag?

It is small clues like this you need to incorporate into the framing -again pinned on Hanratty at the time after the shocking murder-

[caz]

Paul Foot, whose research was scrupulous,writes : on Thursday evening October 5th 1961 Hanratty rang France and said ,"Dixie Dixie I am wanted for the A6 murder-" France and his brother-in -law then kept Hanratty talking -while the police,who were in the house tried to trace the call."

Foot also states that by September 28th Acott was certain Hanratty was their man 'Hanratty ,according to the France postcard and the information from Mr Pratt. Hanratty was in Ireland ."
The date Acott was informed about the has been fixed by Paul Foot at 25th September and that it was Mrs Charlotte France who informed them-importantly at that time there had been no public mention of Ryan.Oxford testifying in court under oath stated "on September 24th we did not know who Ryan was -he was only a name .By 25th September we had identified the man Ryan as possibly being Hanratty.Also on 26th September Acott and Oxford visited Mr and Mrs Hanratty at their home.They were asked about a friend of Jimmy's called "Dixie" who they thought was one of Hanratty's girl friends.[further evidence they had seen "Dixie' France the previous day .

Hi Nats,

The reason Hanratty gave for not mentioning his stay in Rhyl on the murder night, but lying about being in Liverpool instead, was that he thought at the time that the police merely wanted to 'interview' him (in the capacity of a witness or informant?) but did not actually suspect him of the murder.

Leaving aside the fact he would have had even less reason to lie about his whereabouts if that had been the case, how does the timing work? By October 5th Hanratty knew he was wanted for the murder, so when did he lie to the police about spending the night of August 22nd in Liverpool, and did he volunteer this information without being asked about his whereabouts that night? I can't believe this habitual criminal only thought they wanted to 'interview' him, if the immortal words: "Where were you on... such and such a night?" were already hanging in the air.

Love,

Caz
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[Natalie Severn]

I think you underestimate Ewer's outrage at the way Janet Gregsten was being treated by her wayward husband. It is well documented fact that the mistreatment of one's sister-in-law can excite the most powerful emotions in the the most placid of individuals. With emotions such as those in play, can we rule anything out no matter how bonkers it might seem?

Spitfire that is exactly my take on Ewer .I don't believe that at this stage Ewer and his wife [Janet's half sister] were concerned about anything but the abandonment by Gregsten of his family home and his wife Janet and their two sons-their little nephews. They immediately took Janet and her sons into their home after the murder where they all lived together for quite some time after all.
And this type of outrage by sisters and brothers and in laws as you say is not uncommon ---in some cultures brothers and brother in laws have flown miles to punish a husband who had married their sister then abandoned her. And when children are involved family rage can simmer over into going to sort the straying man out big time .
Regarding the way it unfolded-my take.France I doubt he would have gone much outside people he knew he could trust to do a job like that and I seriously doubt he would have wanted Hanratty anywhere near it.But Hanratty would have had his uses having been sitting boasting to France into the small hours for 5 weeks about his exploits in prison etc so that when France and the gunman were talking of how they could conceal his identity in case Valerie and Gregsten reported the incident to the police a ready made role model in the shape of Hanratty sprang to mind -as did the idea of having the gunman as a man 'on the run' who had 'done the lot' , done CT, -they even namred the man Jim -[which Valerie didn't believe was his name.]
So with no real harm intended just a damn good frightener job to give Gregsten the hebbie jeebies from then on-forever looking over his shoulder in case he was due for another 'visit' from the big boys, France set to work planning how to do it -and that is where Alphon came in useful -possibly -in checking out the pubs the couple went to , where they went afterwards etc
I do not believe btw that France intended the harm that came to Hanratty-he was just a useful scapegoat-especially when it went pear shaped.I believe he killed himself because he knew he had helped to frame an innocent man.
One final point : Hanratty told his lawyer that on his return to France's flat ,France had insisted on seeing the bill he had been given when he had stayed in the Vienna Hotel on 21st August. This of course was crucial in the framing of Hanratty .If France had planted the gun and ammunition covered with a Hanratty hanky under the back seat of the 31 bus on the 23rd or 24th August ,the next step was to plant a couple of spent cartridges in the Vienna Hotel in the room Hanratty had stayed in .But he couldn't do that until Hanratty was back from Liverpool and he was sure Hanratty had stayed there and in what room he had stayed.

[caz]

In the same way as it would be human nature for Valerie to pick out Hanratty at the ID parade when she knew full well the suspect had strange colour hair and a distinctive accent. The fact that she had picked out someone else entirely at a previous ID seriously undermines the quality of that identification anyway.

In all seriousness, Acott might as well have stuck a "pick me" sign above Hanratty's head.

Hi uncle,

I keep hearing this, but could you explain how you know Valerie was told in advance of the second line-up that the latest suspect would present with 'strange colour hair'? Of course she knew about Hanratty's accent because she got permission for him to speak! She recognised his voice as the one she had been subjected to for several hours in the car.

If Hanratty may as well have had a "pick me" sign over his head, why didn't Valerie just pick him then, instead of spending some considerable time over it and then wanting to hear him speak before committing herself?

Love,

Caz
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[caz]

But hey--- 11 sightings were made of him in Rhyl once people heard about his visit there. Not a single sighting of Hanratty anywhere near Taplow. Yet they all-the prosecution that is -insisted Hanratty was there and that he did all this very mad stuff under the cloak of darkness --- maybe they thought he had secret powers to make himself invisible with that peculiar hanky business-you know-the sort of wave thing -Tommy Cooper like - that got him invisibly transported to Taplow here where he uses same hanky to hide his face in Buckinghamshire cornfield before he makes a cruel and utterly vile monster of himself on Deadman's Hill and ends the ghastly scenario by blowing his nose on the hanky so nobody can be in any doubt that it ishis hanky when he faces Capital punishment for murder. From then on he becomes invisible again because not a single person has ever reported seeing him either then or since in Redditch East London or on his way across London with the gun and the big bag of ammunition to be placed -again unseen, with his trademark mucous ridden hanky folded on top of it all -just so everybody will know it was Hanratty that did it -on the 36A bus on the morning of 24th August 1961.

The sarcasm doesn't really suit you, Nats.

The thing about the hanky is that back in 1961 nobody had 'trademark' snot, which could have been used to identify and thereby frame the owner of the offending article. Apart from the hiding place being one which Hanratty admitted to using himself, when disposing of unwanted loot and so on, there was nothing about the hanky that could have served to incriminate him, so taking it from the laundry and putting it on the bus with the gun would have been a completely pointless exercise from the point of view of anyone seeking to frame him.

The idea that the hanky eventually testing positive for Hanratty DNA was either 'tampered with' (how and when exactly - before his remains were exhumed and available?), or even a different hanky from the one found on the bus, is just more conspiracy nonsense, but this time on the part of the authorities, not the criminal gang who supposedly masterminded the original fiasco. Hanratty's DNA didn't turn up on the hanky by magic, and nobody knew until long after Hanratty had blown his hooter for the last time that it might one day prove useful, his exhumed remains providing the DNA to match.

Love,

Caz
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[caz]

Scotland Road along with the Gorbals in Scotland was the poorest area in the country in 1961.It was famed for having a 'pawn shop on every corner' [have forgotten the complete phrase but famous .There would have been NO taxis regularly running up and down Scotland Road in 1961 between 4 and 5 pm on a
Tuesday afternoon.

Hi Nats,

I don't think the suggestion was that Hanratty would have hailed a cab along Scotland Road to take him to a sweet shop so he could ask there for directions to somewhere else entirely. Surely the point was that if he had found a taxi at Lime St station, he wouldn't have needed to go up Scotland Road in the first place.

Love,

Caz
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[Spitfire]

What strikes me is the sheer implausibility of the motivation proposed...

I think you underestimate Ewer's outrage at the way Janet Gregsten was being treated by her wayward husband. It is well documented fact that the mistreatment of one's sister-in-law can excite the most powerful emotions in the the most placid of individuals. With emotions such as those in play, can we rule anything out no matter how bonkers it might seem?

[caz]

Ed,
Interesting observations as usual. But I fear Caz, Graham and Spitfire will have the Blue Moon theory for breakfast.

Trying to make Gregsten see the error of his ways was unlikely to be achieved at gunpoint. Especially with his young paramour beside him. And what Ewer, a presumably intelligent man, could not achieve, was unlikely to be achieved by Hanratty, Alphon or some family confidante of France in a 5 hour discourse.

Ewer had presumably done all the talking required. If he had commissioned other means of persuasion then talking would not have been on the agenda. Why would Alphon, or Russell with a gun be able to persuade Gregsten to see things differently, especially when sitting next to Valerie Storie?

What strikes me is the sheer implausibility of the motivation proposed, regardless of who the gunman was, and how magnificently he managed to screw up his 'brief' - not least by leaving Valerie to survive after he had committed murder in her presence and raped her. How relieved everyone involved in this conspiracy must have been when she played into their hands and fingered their chosen scapegoat - the childish 'cowboy' acting alone and trying out his new toy.

And to think the very idea of Hanratty, as an impulsive and inexperienced gunman, moving on from house-breaking, pushing his luck and coming a cropper, has been described as 'far-fetched'.

Some of the most recent speculation appears almost as desperate as Hanratty's late change of alibi.

Love,

Caz
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