The attack on Swedish housewife Mrs Meike Dalal on Thursday, September 7th 1961

[Sherlock Houses]

Incidentally ,I think as well as myself, I speak for others when I say the onslaught of petty quibbling, you seam to enjoy tempting Natalie into meaningless back and forth catty innuendos, is neither enjoyable, or helpful, to members of this wonderful forum, who are trying to concentrate on important issues. I mean we all like a bit of fun now and again, but it can become tiresome.

Nail on the head.

[Natalie Severn]

I'm rather skeptical about the idea that the crime was staged to frighten MG. The crucial question is: what was the benefit to Ewer in such a scenario? He paid a substantial amount of money, and ran the risk of a hefty prison sentence if his hired gun was arrested and decided to spill the beans. In return, what would he get if his plan succeeded? All that would happen is that MG would go back to playing 'Happy Families' with his wife.

Yes I can see the reason for your reservation DM .But these were middle class Hampstead types with the sort of manners and mores of that time . I picture William Ewer slightly differently from yourself perhaps .Certainly Ewer adored Janet and probably her children too . But he also had a wife of his own -Janet's sister.And I sense that he lived by a certain code of honour -a bit sergeant major like and was deeply outraged by Gregsten's behaviour to Janet. It simply had to be put a stop to once and for all. Gregsten must return to his family and act like a proper husband and father instead of behaving like a complete cad and upsetting Janet like this. And I think he may not even have realised that he was actually falling for her himself- certainly Janet says she herself only slowly realised how much she was becoming attracted to him.
I don't see France either as having ever deliberately set Hanratty up to die.Hanratty might have fitted a kind of 'role play' model with his street wise argot and tall stories -some true-but thats all. However when it ended in rape and murder it became every man for himself and a scapegoat had to be found and if the cap fitted Hanratty then Hanratty would be the fall guy.
Yes,I too think Alphon was in there somewhere -employed to keep tabs on the couple in Slough for example which he fitted in with going to the dog races thumbing a lift over to the pub and so on .Finding out their movements. Sometimes going over to Taplow with Ewer in his car.
But... you may be right- .

[moste]

I'm rather skeptical about the idea that the crime was staged to frighten MG. The crucial question is: what was the benefit to Ewer in such a scenario? He paid a substantial amount of money, and ran the risk of a hefty prison sentence if his hired gun was arrested and decided to spill the beans. In return, what would he get if his plan succeeded? All that would happen is that MG would go back to playing 'Happy Families' with his wife.

My take on it is this:

Ewer lusts after JG and decides that MG has to go, especially since he's two-timing his wife. Ewer can then 'comfort' the grieving widow.
Ewer meets Alphon and France separately. Alphon agrees to carry out the killing. Of course, had Ewer known what Alphon was really like he'd have run a mile, but Alphon is a good actor and plays the part of a hardened killer. France agrees to go along with the plan for money, and puts JH forward as a suitable patsy because he has found out about JH and his daughter, so wants to give him a scare - though he doesn't want him dead.
France gives the gun to Ewer who passes it on to Alphon. Perhaps Ewer and Alphon carry out a reconnaissance of the places MG and VS frequent, which might explain sightings of someone resembling Alphon.
On the night of the murder, Ewer and Alphon follow MG's car. The first location is too busy for PA to carry out the attack, but MG and VS decide to move somewhere quieter. Ewer drops Alphon off and tells him to wait for a couple of hours so that Ewer can give himself an alibi.
Alphon is not a hardened killer, so he drives around until he finally plucks up the courage to shoot - and immediately blames the victim for it. Deciding that he might as well be hanged for a sheep as a lamb (and to get rid of the witness) he rapes and shoots VS.
Alphon returns the gun to Ewer, who gives it back to France. France wraps it in a distinctive handkerchief belonging to JH and hides it in a place JH uses to dispose of unwanted swag.
Ewer and France then point the police towards JH: Ewer with his psychic powers, and France by telling the police about the bus seat.
When JH is convicted, France is shattered. He goes to see Ewer, who tells him to keep quiet or they will both hang. My feeling is that Ewer threatened France's family, and all that France knew was that Ewer had a hit-man at his disposal, so he took the threat seriously. Unable to live with what he'd done he then committed suicide.
Alphon then blackmails Ewer for large sums of money.

Hi Dupplin, I can see that as feasible. I Don't go with the frightener angle either, they had been together for years for goodness sake! And anyway If this guy in the back of the car is only frightening Mike and Val, maybe smacking him about a bit, and, sticking the gun in their faces, insisting on them going their separate ways, 'or else'. Mike is going to say "Oh I know who's put you up to this nonsense. Then as soon as the scary man leaves he just simply phones the police,(or if he's too much of a mouse, Valerie would for sure.) No I'm sticking with preplanned murder.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Spitfire
Trying to put Alphon into the mix is problematic in my view. I'll give two reasons. First, as you say, planting the cartridges in the Vienna would have risked bringing Alphon into the frame. Secondly, I think the gunman was more accomplished than either Alphon or Hanratty - based upon the rapid two shots fired into poor Gregsten from the spurless 0.38 tank gun and the 'line' of bullets fired into Valerie Storie.

and is there anything to suggest that the perceived 'heat ' was so much that a distressed France needed to go to the police with the back seat of the bus story.

Thanks for this Ed .In this case the gunman may have learnt to shoot properly when doing national service. I suspect like Blue Moon states,he might have been a brother of Charlotte France who could be normally be trusted with a difficult situation but broke under pressure that night.They would have had to plan the whole thing from beginning to end including him adopting a false persona and wearing a mask over his face
When it came to the drive to Deadman's Hill.This of course was Gregsten's daily route to work as far as Watford /Abbot's Langley --after that the route meanders on until they reach the road sign flashing up with Deadman's Hill on it after which they were plunged into near total darkness.This is where I see Alphon's hand in it and wonder if this erstwhile scholarship boy at Mercer School,one of the oldest and most exclusive schools in London until it closed 1995 ,was actually employed to watch the couple and their haunts near Slough over the Summer months .Fogarty -Waul who lived in a caravan at Peck's farm off Marsh Lane gave a lift to a man in a shortie raincoat ,earlier in August ,when the man got out he headed towards the cornfield.The man looked very like Alphon and he saw the man again in late February 1962 tampering with his car and rang the police etc The man's appearance tallied with Alphon's.On August 22nd the day of the murder The Cobbs and their neighbour Frederick Newell also saw a man in Marsh Lane aged about 27 in a dark suit and white shirt with sallow skin brushed back slightly receding dark hair, dark eyes and a thin nose who had been seen three weeks previously in a dark jacket with a red pullover underneath and two weeks previously wandering round in a raincoat with a red garment underneath .These sound like sightings of a man staking out the lie of the land.

[moste]

And your point is?

Again, what purpose would the Frances have thought was served by taking the trouble to transport Hanratty's hanky to the bus? It was not shown to be his until the DNA from his mucous matched his remains, and the Frances had no reason in 1961 to believe it ever would.

Love,

Caz
X

Not shown to be his. However what they did have as you know in '61 was 'O' positive rhesus negative in the mucus, which France may well have known would have eliminated himself, and possibly others who did not share Hanratty's blood group. Incidentally ,I think as well as myself, I speak for others when I say the onslaught of petty quibbling, you seam to enjoy tempting Natalie into meaningless back and forth catty innuendos, is neither enjoyable, or helpful, to members of this wonderful forum, who are trying to concentrate on important issues. I mean we all like a bit of fun now and again, but it can become tiresome.

[Dupplin Muir]

I'm rather skeptical about the idea that the crime was staged to frighten MG. The crucial question is: what was the benefit to Ewer in such a scenario? He paid a substantial amount of money, and ran the risk of a hefty prison sentence if his hired gun was arrested and decided to spill the beans. In return, what would he get if his plan succeeded? All that would happen is that MG would go back to playing 'Happy Families' with his wife.

My take on it is this:

Ewer lusts after JG and decides that MG has to go, especially since he's two-timing his wife. Ewer can then 'comfort' the grieving widow.
Ewer meets Alphon and France separately. Alphon agrees to carry out the killing. Of course, had Ewer known what Alphon was really like he'd have run a mile, but Alphon is a good actor and plays the part of a hardened killer. France agrees to go along with the plan for money, and puts JH forward as a suitable patsy because he has found out about JH and his daughter, so wants to give him a scare - though he doesn't want him dead.
France gives the gun to Ewer who passes it on to Alphon. Perhaps Ewer and Alphon carry out a reconnaissance of the places MG and VS frequent, which might explain sightings of someone resembling Alphon.
On the night of the murder, Ewer and Alphon follow MG's car. The first location is too busy for PA to carry out the attack, but MG and VS decide to move somewhere quieter. Ewer drops Alphon off and tells him to wait for a couple of hours so that Ewer can give himself an alibi.
Alphon is not a hardened killer, so he drives around until he finally plucks up the courage to shoot - and immediately blames the victim for it. Deciding that he might as well be hanged for a sheep as a lamb (and to get rid of the witness) he rapes and shoots VS.
Alphon returns the gun to Ewer, who gives it back to France. France wraps it in a distinctive handkerchief belonging to JH and hides it in a place JH uses to dispose of unwanted swag.
Ewer and France then point the police towards JH: Ewer with his psychic powers, and France by telling the police about the bus seat.
When JH is convicted, France is shattered. He goes to see Ewer, who tells him to keep quiet or they will both hang. My feeling is that Ewer threatened France's family, and all that France knew was that Ewer had a hit-man at his disposal, so he took the threat seriously. Unable to live with what he'd done he then committed suicide.
Alphon then blackmails Ewer for large sums of money.

[Graham]

Hi Nats,

a dark eyed, heavily built man of 5ft 9ins named Michael Clarke

Just zip on over to the "A6 Rebooted" thread regarding this.

Graham

[Dupplin Muir]

caz wrote:

Again, what purpose would the Frances have thought was served by taking the trouble to transport Hanratty's hanky to the bus? It was not shown to be his until the DNA from his mucous matched his remains, and the Frances had no reason in 1961 to believe it ever would.

It's still unclear whether Hanratty identified the handkerchief as his, but if he did, it clearly was not just an anonymous square of fabric: there must have been something distinctive about it - and this would explain why someone would put it on the bus to incriminate JH.

[uncle_adolph]

Valerie told the court that she had recognised Hanratty early in the id parade but strung it out because: “I wanted to be sure. I wasn’t going to make a mistake this time.”

Sherrard: “I am right in saying, am I not, that you made no identification for as long as twenty minutes,”
Storie: “I don’t think it was that long.”

However in the second Today article her account differs. She again says she recognised Hanatty early, but says she prolonged the id parade to twenty minutes because she could see Hanratty was suffering.

I don’t have the article, entitled ‘My twenty minutes of revenge’, but have pieced together the following from other sources.

“I had seen fear and hope flicker in those cold, staring blue eyes. I had waited for twenty minutes knowing that this man who had trampled my life underfoot like a worm was suffering in that empty thing he no doubt called his soul.

Suddenly, at the very end of the twenty minutes allowed for the identification parade, I was asked if I recognised anyone. I said quietly, ‘Number 6’. In a second the door of the room had slammed shut behind me as I was quickly wheeled out into the corridor. Superintendent Acott gripped my arm, and said, ‘Well done’. I knew I had settled my score with Hanratty.”

Many thanks for the comments, Nick.

Of course, Valerie's subsequent statements regarding the ID parade were all made with the benefit of knowing that this time she had chosen the suspect the police wanted her to pick. Who was in a position to dispute what she said particularly given her physical appearance in court? And yet at the previous ID she had been quite happy to potentially send an innocent man to the gallows. It quite clearly showed she had no real idea....leaving her mind totally open to suggestion.

The comments in Today probably owe more to the journalist's imagination than anything Valerie actually said. What does the truth matter when there is copy to sell?

[Natalie Severn]

How relieved everyone involved in this conspiracy must have been when she played into their hands and fingered their chosen scapegoat
X

She didn't though did she? On her first identification parade she selected a dark eyed, heavily built man of 5ft 9ins named Michael Clarke who was totally innocent and just a volunteer.Nowadays this would not only make all subsequent 'identifications' null and void but would simply be totally discredited.

[Natalie Severn]

Valerie told the court that she had recognised Hanratty early in the id parade but strung it out because: “I wanted to be sure. I wasn’t going to make a mistake this time.”

Yes-understood.But these days you have to recognise somebody at once.Hesitation is not allowed.Moreover Valerie had 'identified' a totally different looking man with dark eyes first time round.Again this would not be permitted.You cannot 'identify' twice over.
Did you know that it has been confirmed that Hanratty was the only man with a London accent on the parade born within 100 miles of London.Nowadays that would be totally discredited.

[Natalie Severn]

#633).
X

No its not the reason he gave Caz---look it up yourself --quite frankly all you seem to want to do is sneer

[NickB]

Valerie told the court that she had recognised Hanratty early in the id parade but strung it out because: “I wanted to be sure. I wasn’t going to make a mistake this time.”

Sherrard: “I am right in saying, am I not, that you made no identification for as long as twenty minutes,”
Storie: “I don’t think it was that long.”

However in the second Today article her account differs. She again says she recognised Hanatty early, but says she prolonged the id parade to twenty minutes because she could see Hanratty was suffering.

I don’t have the article, entitled ‘My twenty minutes of revenge’, but have pieced together the following from other sources.

“I had seen fear and hope flicker in those cold, staring blue eyes. I had waited for twenty minutes knowing that this man who had trampled my life underfoot like a worm was suffering in that empty thing he no doubt called his soul.

Suddenly, at the very end of the twenty minutes allowed for the identification parade, I was asked if I recognised anyone. I said quietly, ‘Number 6’. In a second the door of the room had slammed shut behind me as I was quickly wheeled out into the corridor. Superintendent Acott gripped my arm, and said, ‘Well done’. I knew I had settled my score with Hanratty.”

[uncle_adolph]

Hi uncle,

I keep hearing this, but could you explain how you know Valerie was told in advance of the second line-up that the latest suspect would present with 'strange colour hair'? Of course she knew about Hanratty's accent because she got permission for him to speak! She recognised his voice as the one she had been subjected to for several hours in the car.

If Hanratty may as well have had a "pick me" sign over his head, why didn't Valerie just pick him then, instead of spending some considerable time over it and then wanting to hear him speak before committing herself?

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz, and many thanks for your reply.

I am away at the moment (wretched weekend conference!) and so do not have access to my Hanratty tomes. However, I do believe that Paul Foot goes into some detail over this. I will leave you to look it up or will come back to you next week.

As for Valerie taking so long to pick him out....my belief is that she genuinely could not recall with certainty who the attacker was. I am sure we have all been in a position of trying to put a face to a particular occasion or having been in a situation and trying to recall the face we then saw....it can be difficult. So it may well have been, so far as the ID parade is concerned, that she realised who the police wanted her to pick but she was struggling in her own mind to put him in that car. But once that link has been made, even though it may be an incorrect one, the belief that it was him becomes unshakeable.....as, indeed, it has been so far as Valerie is concerned.

Just my belief which you are welcome to dispute!

[caz]

That was not the reason he gave Caz .

Care to enlighten us all then, Nats? It was certainly one of the reasons - quoted on this thread a few pages back (see posts #632 and #633). Hanratty claimed he would have told the truth about Rhyl if he'd known he was wanted for the actual murder, and not just for an 'interview' about it.

Love,

Caz
X