The attack on Swedish housewife Mrs Meike Dalal on Thursday, September 7th 1961

[Graham]

I find it strange that those in the Hanratty-did-not-do-it-camp are willing to make quite appalling slurs on the reputation of a dead man. A man killed in cold blood by the blue-eyed (literally and figuratively) boy, James Hanratty.

There is absolutely no evidence that Michael Gregsten was involved in blackmail. There is plenty of evidence that James Hanratty was a callous killer and rapist.

I couldn't agree with you more, Spitfire. It was ever thus on these threads, I'm afraid, though. I'm glad you posted this.

On the last (?) TV documentary made about the A6, Michael Gregsten's son Simon spoke - and he was plainly still extremely upset about the events all those years ago. He observed that if you ask a disinterested person who was the victim in the A6 Case, there's a good chance that the reply will be 'James Hanratty'.

Graham

[Ed James]

In my humble experience, relatively lowly civil servants such as Mike Gregsten working in an outstation like the Road Research Laboratory seldom if ever come in contact with Whitehall based Ministers like Ernest Marples. And they would not be in the position to have personal or technical knowledge to have a hold over a Minister.

Of course it is possible to conjecture that a conspiracy exists virtually in any field (no pun intended).

If the base of the thinking is that the establishment conspired against Hanratty and there must be some major reason hiding a public scandal that is hitherto not apparent to anyone, I can't go along with that.

Whether you think Hanratty guilty or not, I think those that prosecuted the case were genuinely convinced of Hanratty's guilt, even if many questionable actions were designed to strengthen and not weaken the case against Hanratty. And subsequent enquiries and appeals were conducted with particular regard to fairly constrained legal rules that recognised that a jury had reached a decision on the evidence in the case of a very despicable crime and there was a reluctance to overturn it without totally compelling evidence that couldn't be explained away.

Having regard to legal orthodoxy, it wasn't in retrospect a surprise that the Court Of Appeal gratefully preferred the DNA evidence rather than deal with difficult, contradictory matters of evidence and non disclosure.

I still think there is further 'truth' to come out and in that regard I would be grateful if Graham started a broader Alphon thread that covered not just finance but whether he ever revealed any insights that suggested he had some connection with the case.
regards
Ed

[Graham]

If

the base of the thinking is that the establishment conspired against Hanratty and there must be some major reason hiding a public scandal that is hitherto not apparent to anyone, I can't go along with that.

Hi Ed,

Nice post. There are those amongst JH's supporters who do seem to have convinced themselves that the Establishmment conspired against JH, but in all honesty I don't think I ever read a reasonable argument for this. It seems to me that some of his, er, 'more enthusiastic' supporters were unable to accept the obvious, i.e., that he did it, and so looked elsewhere for a reason why their darling boy was hanged. This country has always been pretty damn good at giving birth to scandals, and also at covering them up. However if, as Ed says, there was an Establishment conspiracy against JH then it must have been for a reason, and thus far I have not been advised of what that reason might have been. And never will be, in truth.

I still think there is further 'truth' to come out and in that regard I would be grateful if Graham started a broader Alphon thread that covered not just finance but whether he ever revealed any insights that suggested he had some connection with the case.

I will with pleasure start another Alphon Thread, but only when I get my books back - promised "early this week". I've stated many times over the years that in my honest opinion Peter Alphon's involvement in the A6 Case was purely fortuitous and coincidental. Alphon was a complex character, and also very intelligent, and it seems to me that he led certain people by the nose with regard to what I feel was simply a coincidental connection with the A6. However, at least one person was more than willing to be led along, and Alphon made the most of it, both in terms of publicity and £££'s. In my considered opinion, Peter Alphon would have made a damn good politician.

Graham

[Limehouse]

I find it strange that those in the Hanratty-did-not-do-it-camp are willing to make quite appalling slurs on the reputation of a dead man. A man killed in cold blood by the blue-eyed (literally and figuratively) boy, James Hanratty.

There is absolutely no evidence that Michael Gregsten was involved in blackmail. There is plenty of evidence that James Hanratty was a callous killer and rapist.

I am not willing to believe that at all.

[moste]

The base of the thinking is that the establishment conspired against Hanratty and there must be some major reason hiding a public scandal that is hitherto not apparent to anyone, I can't go along with that......Thank you Mr. Graham..
I find it strange that the "Hanratty did it people", though knowing that this case is riddled with skullduggery, from the supposed tap on the morris window, to the final drop through the trap door, refuse to accept, that for some unknown reason its quite possible that JH was set up. From the, "I managed to convince him not to lock him in the trunk, because there is a hole in the exhaust, to the juries pathetic "What does beyond reasonable doubt mean?" after hours of deliberations. COME ON LETS GET SERIOUS!

[OneRound]

Regardless of whether Hanratty was guilty or not, I find it totally unrealistic to take the view that this case involved a conspiracy by ''the establishment'' (quite whatever that term means, presumably the top echelons of Government).

If there really was such a conspiracy, surely the establishment would have organised it better than to rely on luck and such a dubious cast list.

Luck? Could the establishment have had such better luck than Hanratty having no plausible alibi for the crime? No signing of the guest register in Rhyl (as he did in London at the Vienna), no retained bus ticket, no memory of asking for directions from a cabbie who was going on a bender before moving down south, etc, etc? In fact, no evidence at all that he was in Rhyl as he finally claimed. I fully accept that doesn't prove Hanratty guilty - there was no obligation upon him at trial to even provide an alibi. However, that's not my point - the point is, how could the establishment have known that Hanratty would be unable to provide an alibi?

If the establishment were to organise a conspiracy, surely it would want more reliable participants than Alphon, France and Nudds? Why does the expression ''Not wish to touch with a bargepole'' come to mind?

Rather along the lines of Ed's recent post, I do believe there was unfair withholding of information and possible embellishment by the police in the lead up to and at Hanratty's trial plus a marked reluctance by the Home Office to thoroughly investigate concerns over subsequent years. However, I don't believe that amounts to an establishment conspiracy - and most definitely not before the crime was committed.

Oh, and the DNA? I can see a case being made for that to have been contaminated but not fabricated.

Best regards,

OneRound

[Limehouse]

I am not willing to believe that at all.

What I meant by the above post is that I do not believe MG was involved in any kind of attempt at blackmail against anyone at all, even though I am 98% sure Hanratty was innocent.

[Limehouse]

In my humble experience, relatively lowly civil servants such as Mike Gregsten working in an outstation like the Road Research Laboratory seldom if ever come in contact with Whitehall based Ministers like Ernest Marples. And they would not be in the position to have personal or technical knowledge to have a hold over a Minister.

Of course it is possible to conjecture that a conspiracy exists virtually in any field (no pun intended).

If the base of the thinking is that the establishment conspired against Hanratty and there must be some major reason hiding a public scandal that is hitherto not apparent to anyone, I can't go along with that.

Whether you think Hanratty guilty or not, I think those that prosecuted the case were genuinely convinced of Hanratty's guilt, even if many questionable actions were designed to strengthen and not weaken the case against Hanratty. And subsequent enquiries and appeals were conducted with particular regard to fairly constrained legal rules that recognised that a jury had reached a decision on the evidence in the case of a very despicable crime and there was a reluctance to overturn it without totally compelling evidence that couldn't be explained away.

Having regard to legal orthodoxy, it wasn't in retrospect a surprise that the Court Of Appeal gratefully preferred the DNA evidence rather than deal with difficult, contradictory matters of evidence and non disclosure.

I still think there is further 'truth' to come out and in that regard I would be grateful if Graham started a broader Alphon thread that covered not just finance but whether he ever revealed any insights that suggested he had some connection with the case.
regards
Ed

I think it is highly unlikely that the powers-that-be conspired against Hanratty in terms of eliminating him in order to protect anyone in authority from exposure. However, I do think it is credible to believe that evidence was selected, manipulated and perhaps even fabricated to secure a conviction against someone who was at least a 'credible' suspect (a known criminal) in order to wind up the case and that there is every possibility that, even if Hanratty was guilty, he should have been sharing the dock with at least one other person. I also think that the whole truth about the affair will never be known.

[moste]

Originally Posted by Ed James View Post
In my humble experience, relatively lowly civil servants such as Mike Gregsten working in an outstation like the Road Research Laboratory seldom if ever come in contact with Whitehall based Ministers like Ernest Marples. And they would not be in the position to have personal or technical knowledge to have a hold over a Minister.



Just checking into the history of Road research Labs ,and far from being an outstation, from 1948 this group of offices in the Historic Langley Hall, was "The Labs" which the ministers for transport relied on constantly for advice, when on an almost weekly event, during question time in parliament they would be required to give explanations on numerous traffic/transport activities.Mr. Gregsten was a scientist, so I would disagree with Ed on this one.

[Ed James]

Originally Posted by Ed James View Post
In my humble experience, relatively lowly civil servants such as Mike Gregsten working in an outstation like the Road Research Laboratory seldom if ever come in contact with Whitehall based Ministers like Ernest Marples. And they would not be in the position to have personal or technical knowledge to have a hold over a Minister.



Just checking into the history of Road research Labs ,and far from being an outstation, from 1948 this group of offices in the Historic Langley Hall, was "The Labs" which the ministers for transport relied on constantly for advice, when on an almost weekly event, during question time in parliament they would be required to give explanations on numerous traffic/transport activities.Mr. Gregsten was a scientist, so I would disagree with Ed on this one.

Hi Moste
Entirely happy for you to disagree. I can only draw upon over 10 years experience working in the Department for Transport to say that Minsters are fairly remote, based in Whitehall and did not routinely deal with officers of MG's pay grade. Any dealings on technical areas would generally be filtered through senior civil servants.

It is all a bit of a non point because your particular conspiracy theory just doesn't fit with the key facts of the case .

regards

Ed

[moste]

Hi Ed ,I understand what your saying, all probably true, 99% of the time ,However Lord Dennings report to Harold Mcmillan was that, "The apparent rumours of Mr.Marples association with young prostitutes, appear to be true". Did you know of any ministers of this type, in your very lengthy workings in the department.
As for the facts of the case, they seam to lead us down the proverbial garden path, down the street, and into oblivion.
I'm only trying to look a bit further than we are told to look ,as it were.
regards.
Steve.

[moste]

Also Ed. In your experiences with the transport ministry, would you know who would be responsible for the arranging and setting up of the Traffic counting that Mr. Kerr was working on?. sounds more like a road research lab initiative, I would imagine. I'm still thinking it odd, that the two persons assigned to that stretch of road, for the midnight shift, that Mr. Kerr took over from, had been moved to a different location further south, making that layby a much lonelier place that it otherwise would have been

[Ed James]

Hi Moste

In my experience Ministers ranged in ability, character and behaviour as the general population. While some were undoubtedly brilliant in terms of mastering facts and articulating arguments, the main distinguishing feature was an eye for the 'political' opportunity/ downside. You simply did not get close enough to know their pecadillos, or them yours.
In 1961 roads provision I understand was handled regionally or by county. But in any case Ministers would not be involved in operational matters such as the manning of traffic census.

If you are looking for a quiet spot for an assassination what about a cornfield at Dorney Reach, without driving on a long ,risky journey and stopping to let your quarry get out?

regards

Ed

[Sherlock Houses]

Youtube video

There is an interesting, 46 minute long Youtube video of Meike Dalal [uploaded in 2010] in which she speaks to a small female audience about her childhood on a farm in Sweden during and after WW2, Among other things she speaks of her fondness for England which prompted her to move there in the mid 1950's. She doesn't mention the horrific assault she endured on September 7th 1961 however.

For those interested she can be seen here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyaOAJq5gQU

[Sherlock Houses]

As with Valerie Storie a couple of weeks earlier, Detective-Sergeant Jock Mackle of Scotland Yard visited Mrs Dalal in hospital to obtain her assistance in composing an identi-kit photo of her violent attacker.
I wonder what the resultant identi-kit photo looked like ? A little strange that it seems never to have seen the light of day, except for the ones in the know.

How much it resembled Alphon we'll probably never learn.