The attack on Swedish housewife Mrs Meike Dalal on Thursday, September 7th 1961

[Sherlock Houses]

You are right, of course, but for those who believe that Hanratty was the A6 killer, they must surely also believe that Hanratty did not attack Mrs Dalal because she saw him very clearly in daylight and he most certainly did not fit the description of her attacker in any way, including manner of dress.

Besides which Hanratty was in Ireland on the day of Mrs Dalal's vicious attack.

Mrs Dalal told the police that her killer claimed to be 'the Essex killer' (as she put it). Obviously, 'A6' and 'Essex' sound similar to some people.

This is a misconception Limehouse. The reference to 'Essex murderer' was made by a passer-by, Philip Dyerson, who misheard Mrs Dalal's scream.
The following morning, Friday, September 8th, the Daily Express mentioned the assault stating that the man told Mrs Dalal......"I am the man who killed on the A6. I want all the money there is in the house."

[OneRound]

... As Mrs Dalal made a positive i.d. of Alphon as her attacker, it's difficult to understand why, even when he had an alibi from the Almanac suppliers, he wasn't charged ...

Graham

Hi Graham - unless a hole could be found in the alibi from the Almanac suppliers, there was little prospect of a 'guilty' verdict being obtained regardless of how good a witness Mrs Dalal turned out to be.

Also, I wouldn't be too surprised if the Police top brass and Acott, in particular, breathed a sigh of relief that Alphon appeared to have an alibi for the attack on Mrs Dalal. They might have found all the further inevitable publicity uncomfortable if their first publicised A6 suspect had appeared in court on a separate serious offence with the main prosecution witness (Mrs Dalal) testifying and reminding all as to what he said about Gregsten's murder. All this at a time when Hanratty would probably have been counting down the days for his visit from the hangman.

Best regards,

OneRound

[Graham]

Hi OneRound,

you could well be right. I can only think that the two Almanac suppliers must have been able to prove beyond question that Alphon was with them at the precise time Mrs Dalal was attacked. I'm not sure how they managed this, to be perfectly honest, but whatever they said must have satisfied Acott. After all, it seems that JH himself was convicted with the aid of an identification which many have challenged. Blimey, I'm sounding like a JH supporter.......

Yes, I believe that Acott & Co must, figuratively, have pushed Alphon out of the door and out of their sight with the end of a broom once the Dalal case fell apart.

By the way, it was the second attack on Mrs Willis that was just a couple of days prior to JH's execution. Mrs Dalal was attacked on 7 September before JH's arrest.

Graham

[Limehouse]

Hi Julie

The events involving the double hold up of the Knebworth housewife are intriguing but unresolved. My initial reaction was scepticism that it was Alphon when reading about the first incident of the man holding up Audrey Willis.

Although her description fitted Alphon, the gun was described as small. I also found it hard to believe Alphon would go to Knebworth at that juncture to get money, but would turn to his mother for cash even at that time.

She later said that the Alphon tape that Woffinden played her reminded her of the man. But she thought her intruder was weaker ,more insignificant and that Alphon had more brains.

The timing of the second visit and the content of what he said only add to the mystery.

Nevertheless, I do think Alphon had the unusual, chameleon like capacity to make himself look smaller and weaker than he actually was, or make himself seem larger. He was also, I think , a good actor It could be this which meant that VS did not pick him out (even if would have been wrong to so).

I think the two things I am most interested about Alphon are: Did he identify any special insights to the A6 case in his conversations with Justice etc? And has anyone given a credible explanation for the new found wealth and the regular cash payments into his bank account amounting to £5,000? And I don't mean he won it on the dogs.
Those who think the abduction was planned may think Alphon's role, if any, could have been to shadow the couples whereabouts.

regards

Ed

Could he have been blackmailing someone? Someone powerful or influential and wealthy?

[moste]

Now your talking my kind of language. Mr. Gregsten could have been blackmailing someone.
Someone powerful or influential, and Wealthy, Some weasel in a high place,who maybe had a serious liking for young prostitutes. Someone who later was found out to be an absolute rogue.
someone with connections to the Road research Lab. Like for example a Minister of transport, Conspiracy theory? you bet ya

[moste]

Maybe It was as VS had told Mr. Kerr all along, they were not stuck up, "they gave him a lift" ,what if it was prearranged that the passenger, was to take them to a rendezvous location, and instead of receiving lets say 5 grand blackmail money MG was assassinated instead for his troubles, and the 5 grand wound up in the picked up passengers bank account instead.
This is such a mysterious case, because it has always been crucial that the truth is kept out of the public domain, so crucial that an innocent man had to hang for it. What was it Alphon said, something like" Hanratty was expendable"
Liars quite often trickle out truths, its how they get their kicks. food for thought.

[moste]

Hi OneRound,

you could well be right. I can only think that the two Almanac suppliers must have been able to prove beyond question that Alphon was with them at the precise time Mrs Dalal was attacked. I'm not sure how they managed this, to be perfectly honest, but whatever they said must have satisfied Acott. After all, it seems that JH himself was convicted with the aid of an identification which many have challenged. Blimey, I'm sounding like a JH supporter.......

Yes, I believe that Acott & Co must, figuratively, have pushed Alphon out of the door and out of their sight with the end of a broom once the Dalal case fell apart.

By the way, it was the second attack on Mrs Willis that was just a couple of days prior to JH's execution. Mrs Dalal was attacked on 7 September before JH's arrest.

Graham

Those two almanac sellers wouldn't have to prove anything beyond question would they? suffice to say "Oh yes he was with us that morning or afternoon!

[Limehouse]

Now your talking my kind of language. Mr. Gregsten could have been blackmailing someone.
Someone powerful or influential, and Wealthy, Some weasel in a high place,who maybe had a serious liking for young prostitutes. Someone who later was found out to be an absolute rogue.
someone with connections to the Road research Lab. Like for example a Minister of transport, Conspiracy theory? you bet ya

There is no evidence that MG had any money at all.

I meant to offer an explanation for the amount of money in Alphon's account. He had no job and his family was no wealthy and yet he deposited very large sums of money in his account that have been explained away as 'money he won on the dogs'.

Could Alphon have been blackmailing someone?

As Graham has suggested, maybe that's a topic for a new thread.

[Graham]

Apropose nothing at all really, I've just spent some time going over old posts, from 5+ years ago, on the various A6 sub-threads - I don't have my books at the moment, and I needed to check one or two things and refresh my aging memory.

What struck me is how much more pleasant it is these days to debate the case with other posters who are polite and non-aggressive. There was genuine viciousness and aggression in the air in the old days, and little wonder that Admin closed the A6 Forum for a time. I wasn't entirely innocent myself, I have to say. It makes a huge difference, I can tell you.

If anyone would care to start up a new thread on Alphon's finances, or what's known of them, please do so. Or I will, but only once I've got my books back (hopefully this weekend, if the rotter who borrowed them answers the phone!) so I can do some revision.

Graham

[Sherlock Houses]

Those two almanac sellers wouldn't have to prove anything beyond question would they? suffice to say "Oh yes he was with us that morning or afternoon!

That's quite correct.

For me there's something very fishy and convenient about their alibiing Alphon. The attack on Mrs Dalal happened approximately between 1.30 and 1.45 pm. And Alphon just happened to be in their shop at exactly that time ? Did he have to clock on or something ? I don't buy that for one second.

[Dupplin Muir]

Sherlock Houses wrote:

For me there's something very fishy and convenient about their alibiing Alphon. The attack on Mrs Dalal happened approximately between 1.30 and 1.45 pm. And Alphon just happened to be in their shop at exactly that time ? Did he have to clock on or something ? I don't buy that for one second.

I'd agree with this. I sometimes watch American true-crime documentaries on YouTube, and in one case the suspect claimed he was in a bar at the time of the murder. When the police went to the bar and showed his photograph, the bar-staff recognised him but, because he was there so often, they could not say for certain whether or not he was present on the night in question. If Alphon was a regular visitor to the almanac-seller I believe it would be very difficult for them to be sure that he was there on (say) Tuesday rather than Monday or Wednesday. Even if there was a receipt for the sale proving he was there on Tuesday, this would inevitably have been hand-written (given the state of cash-register technology!) and almost certainly would not have included the time of the transaction.

One question I'd like answered is the location of the almanac-seller. I've done a search for 'Dalal' but found nothing in any of the resulting posts. I'd be interested to know how long it would have taken Alphon to get from Mrs Dalal's house to there, given the transport situation at the time.

[Limehouse]

Apropose nothing at all really, I've just spent some time going over old posts, from 5+ years ago, on the various A6 sub-threads - I don't have my books at the moment, and I needed to check one or two things and refresh my aging memory.

What struck me is how much more pleasant it is these days to debate the case with other posters who are polite and non-aggressive. There was genuine viciousness and aggression in the air in the old days, and little wonder that Admin closed the A6 Forum for a time. I wasn't entirely innocent myself, I have to say. It makes a huge difference, I can tell you.

If anyone would care to start up a new thread on Alphon's finances, or what's known of them, please do so. Or I will, but only once I've got my books back (hopefully this weekend, if the rotter who borrowed them answers the phone!) so I can do some revision.

Graham

I agree Graham, it did get very nasty in the old days. One member of the thread actually (don't ask me how) tracked me down on another social networking site and sent me some very abusive messages. I really unnerved me and I thought about involving the police. However, some firm friendships have also been made and I am still in touch with two posters who no longer contribute to the threads.

It is completely civil nowadays and so interesting with some new posters contributing and new aspects of the case being explored - such as the topic of this current thread.

[Graham]

1] Hi Julie. I was actually threatened with physical violence by one maniac poster in the "old days", and he swore he knew where I lived, etc., etc. Someone very recently said that questioning a person's belief 0n a matter like Hanratty's innocence is like questioning someone's religious convictions, and that's exactly correct.

2] Hi D. Muir: long long ago I tried to establish the location of the Old Moore's Almanac distributors, and drew a blank. I even contacted the publishers in Ireland, and they couldn't help. I'm certain that whoever these distributors were (and as far as I know their names and whereabouts have never been mentioned by any writer on the A6) they didn't deal just in Old Moore's. Probably in religious and arcane writings on a general basis. (Thinks: I wonder if the marvellous Rev Lionel Fanthorpe might be worth contacting??)

3] I get the feeling that the arrival of the two Almanac distributing gents made Acott heave a sigh of relief. Alphon was already cleared of the A6, but to have a weird-o like him hanging like an albatross around their necks may just have been more than Acott, Oxford et al could put up with. So at the first possible 'exit sign', out Alphon went, never mind how upsetting poor Mrs Dalal felt about the whole incident. But they hadn't heard the last of him....oh no.

4] Mike and Janet Gregsten were skint. On their uppers. Janet had to sell Mike's beloved piano to pay some bills. The Morris Minor wasn't even theirs - it was on loan from an aunt of Mike's. The suggestion that he was blackmailing someone is crackers as far as I'm concerned, and if Mr Moste would care to elaborate upon this theory, I'd me most (pun not intended) to hear what he has to say.

5] The Profumo Affair, before anyone leaps in feet first, would probably have never been known to the public had it not been for the fact that John Profumo (a) was having it off with a call-girl who happened also to be having it off with an attache at the Soviet Embassy; (b) he lied to The House Of Commons when questioned about it. Dr Stephen Ward, society osteopath and (talented) artist, arranged for 'ladies' to be supplied to anyone who had the means to pay for them. One of his 'ladies', Christine Keeler, coincidentally shared the pillows of both John Profumo and Capt. Ivanov of the Soviet Embassy, so there was a security issue. The Profumo Affair was not, as it is sometimes thought today, some kind of international spy-ring. There were attempts to link other well-known names of the times, including (incredibly) Ruth Ellis. If anyone out there can prove, or even suggest a credible link between Profumo-related matters and the Road Research Laboratory, I'd be more than interested.

Graham

*sorry again for a long post*

[moste]

4] Mike and Janet Gregsten were skint. On their uppers. Janet had to sell ........................ Exactly why blackmail is a possibility. Why is it crackers. Desperate for major cash , knew how to get some, We don't know what made MG tick .
I wasn't going to mention the Profumo affair, but I recently picked up a railway map from the York museum 5'x 2'6" from 1938. and if you push a pin into the location of The old station inn, Taplow where possibly the most incredible serious crime of the century kicked off ,then push a pin into the location of the Cliveden House where possibly the biggest political scandal ever took place , well the pins are almost touching! To big of a coincidence?Impossible to PROVE but John Profumo and Ernie Marples could well have been friends. Marples could well have known MG, in his capacity as transport minister,he had a lot of dealings with the road research labs.

[Spitfire]

I find it strange that those in the Hanratty-did-not-do-it-camp are willing to make quite appalling slurs on the reputation of a dead man. A man killed in cold blood by the blue-eyed (literally and figuratively) boy, James Hanratty.

There is absolutely no evidence that Michael Gregsten was involved in blackmail. There is plenty of evidence that James Hanratty was a callous killer and rapist.