A6 -location of scene and 2nd appeal

[Graham]

All I can say is that Dixie's daughter, whose name I can't remember, put on a very convincing performance! I should add that this particular daughter wasn't Carole, but one of her younger sisters. Carole seems to have simply disappeared since those long-ago events.

Graham

[Natalie Severn]

I agree that France had quite a few criminal convictions-the post war ones were all [three] for gambling-according the BW.But I didn't know they met in jail Julie? Hanratty was only 15 when they met and didnt have a conviction until he was 18 so it seems like France teaching him the ropes might be the case because at this point France had something like 6 or 7 convictions to his name -and Julie for most of 1961 Hanratty was 24----he wasn't 25 until the October.
Carole seems to have had quite a time of it for someone so young---she was admitted to hospital in May 1962 due to taking an overdose of iron tablets and I think she changed her name and where she lived quite a few times. Alphon made a terrible pest of himself with the France family according to one account I read-telephoning them at all hours and threatening - though why they didn't change their number or ex directory it is a bit of a mystery.

[Limehouse]

Whoops! It seems I might have got that wrong then. It's just that Hanratty claimed that Dixie took him under his wing and 'learned him things' (in Hanratty's words) about the criminal world.

Dixie appears to have been something of a criminal mentor to the young Hanratty. Whatever he taught him, he was a rubbish teacher as Hanratty kept getting caught! I suspect Dixie pointed Hanratty to 'fences' who would accept his stolen good (such as LA) or perhaps Dixe acted as a 'middle' man, making a profit for himself whilst at the same time coaching the boy in what was worth stealing (thus the boy takes the risk and the mentor creams off a profit). However, this is just speculation so i'm being a bit naughty really.

What ever the truth, within weeks of bumping into his old mentor, Hanratty's life took a different turn entirely and within nine months, both men were dead.

[Natalie Severn]

Why are you being a bit naughty Julie? This is what appears to have been the case.Charles Dixie France and his family were whitewashed at the time by the papers .What is quite extraordinary though about their testimony as witnesses for the prosecution is the insistence, by each of them, that Hanratty was always ' kind , generous and 'a perfect gentleman'. A similar statement on oath was made by his girlfriend at the time Mary Meaden, Louise Anderson's shop assistant' 'his conduct was impeccable' she said.So while it seems true that his behaviour with the France family was apparently just fine----Charles France trashed his reputation completely at other times.

[Graham]

I think you have to look at the behaviour of the Frances from the viewpoint that they must have suffered a terrific shock to learn that their friend JH, albeit a crook, was capable of carrying out the A6 Crime. I don't think there's any doubt that JH behaved in a gentlemanly fashion -most of the time. However, his previous criminal doings do suggest a rather flammable personality.

I still think it highly likely that Dixie got the gun for JH, hence his huge remorse and subsequent suicide.

For all that, the Frances do appear to have been a fairly close family, although as Nats says they were whitewashed a bit by the media.

Graham

[Natalie Severn]

I appreciate what you are saying Graham but actually I doubt its so.Charles France had six months to consider his role.On October 6th he had told Mick Hanratty at the Rehearsal Club where he went looking for James H with his father,'Don't worry -Jimmy had nothing to do with this business"- he had been very nervous, trembly and whitefaced when he saw the two men and had hurried off fast.
However as the date of the trial drew near he had to be sectioned by doctors and even detained at the hospital to prevent him jumping out of the window there.Likewise his wife was fearful and collapsed in the witness box on several occasions.
Incidently if you have a photo of Sydney Taffler at hand compare it with those photos of Charles France[including the one where he has a fag in his mouth---exact same facial physiognomy as Taffler and same receding hairline--and it was the Sydney Taffler likeness that Foggarty Waul drew attention to when he said he had seen a man lurking about in Marsh Lane !All you need to do is dispense with France's horn rimmed specs!Was he checking out the lie of the land?

[Graham]

Peter Alphon was the person who resembled Sydney Tafler. France looked nothing like him. Or are you now suggesting that the A6 murderer was Dixie France? Nothing would surprise me.

G

[Natalie Severn]

France wearing horn rimmed glasses

Sydney Taffler without glasses

[Graham]

Nats,

please, please do me a favour....would you?

G

[Natalie Severn]

Nats,

please, please do me a favour....would you?

G

Now thats an interesting theory Graham---perhaps we should take another look!

[Limehouse]

Well, I have to say, going by those photos, France looks more similar to Taffler than Alphon ever did. Were France and Taffler similar in age?

[Graham]

This is now getting rather silly, I'm sorry to say. I'll discuss and debate and argue any [I]rational[I] theory or idea about the A6 Case, but not this.

Graham

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Graham,
Charles Dixie France played a significant part in the prosecution case.He it was who informed police that a favourite place to 'hide rubbish" was under the back seat of a bus---interpreted later by lawyer Blom -Cooper as France being told it was the perfect place to 'hide a gun'---in fact Hanratty had said it was a place he used to 'get rid of rubbish[from burglaries]--and actually France agreed in court ,under oath,that that was what Hanratty had said.
France can not just be dismissed,Graham.
Louis Blom Cooper, a writer who despite finding the trial itself grossly falling short of a fair trial-nevertheless,on the evidence of France and Roy Langdale [police informer and convict] believed Hanratty was guilty - states in his book under the final chapter 'Lingering Doubts"

----"[I]even if there was nothing in the letters to warrant an inquiry into the relationship of France and Hanratty, it still does not explain France's almost overwheening guilt complex.[B]Did France,in fact, play some part in the events which led up to the killing on the A6 road[/B]?"
from "The A6 Murder-Regina versus James Hanratty THE SEMBLANCE OF TRUTH" by Louis Blom-Cooper.

Amazingly France was never investigated from what we know-despite the fact that he was always about most nights-or rather mornings as the basement activities began when the main Rehearsal club wound down---and he had a similar on/off job overseeing the tables at the billiard room in Solomon's Gym nearby -until the early hours- so in both the Rehearsal Club and Solomon's gym he was a kind of after hours on/off croupier and Rummy player .


1st photo shows 42 year old Charles Dixie France and he has a similar receding hairline to Taffler and a similar mouth shape-see above photo ] and a similar clean sweep to an oval jawline -the specs make it difficult to see the eyes but his eyes were deep set like Alphon's in the other photo

[Natalie Severn]

Well, I have to say, going by those photos, France looks more similar to Taffler than Alphon ever did. Were France and Taffler similar in age?

Sydney Taffler was born in 31st July 1916 making him 45 at the time of the murder.
Charles Dixie France was born on 13 June 1919 making him 42 at the time.

France was nearer in age to Alphon [age 31 --dob 31 August 1930] than Taffler was].

[propatria27]

I'm sorry to say, but the whole Charles France as the gunman scenario does not work for me. I have not seen one witness statement that gives the gunman's or car drivers age as more than 30 - France cannot be mistaken for anyone of that age and I think his very receding hairline would have been pointed out by at least one witness,

Pete