A6 -location of scene and 2nd appeal

[Graham]

Nats,

VS definitely said that she and MG parked first in Hunterscombe Lane before moving (for whatever reason) to Marsh Lane. I cannot recall at the moment where I read this, but read it I did - Paul Foot, possibly. I can't recall her saying that she and MG were made to turn the car around in the field, but JH certainly made MG turn it to face southwards in the lay-by.

The account of David Henderson, the motor-cyclist, is on Page 32 of the paperback edition of Woffinden, first edition. Woffinden believed him.

Incidentally, a copy of Leonard Miller's "Shadows Of Deadman's Hill" was sold in the USA recently for about $600! I'm glad I kept my copy - not the best A6 book ever written, but Miller gave an opposing view to Foot and Woffinden, and made some good points.

Re: fFootie versus The Growlers - I come from Birmingham, and in/about 1961 Aston Villa got a gate of about 72000 for an FA Cup semi-final. Perry Barr Greyhound Stadium not far away from Villa Park couldn't hold anywhere near this number - but I agree the doggies were very popular in those days.

Graham

[Natalie Severn]

Yes but it goes like this Graham: "after leaving Old Station Inn [they ] headed back along the A4 before taking the third turning on the right, Huntercombe Lane .After going over the newly constructed M 4 Motorway theyforked right into Court Lane ,and followed the road round the cornfield at Dorney Reach"page 4 BW

No mention of stopping at Huntercombe Lane-nor is there any mention of them stopping in Huntercombe Lane at any point in Foot's book Graham.

"They had been to the spot together a number of times over the previous twelve months,parking in the same place each time ,'usually always just inside the gate' [page 4 BW]

Then further on....
"after a while he told them to drive further into the field.He made them......park alongside a haystack covered with tarpaulin -the point here is that although the car was moved further into the field and turned round to face the road this was after the gunman got into the car----VS and MG were parked in their usual place when he came upon them.


Best
Norma

[Natalie Severn]

Its worth remembering that a team of twenty police officers were appointed on the request of the Home Secretary under Superintendent Roger Matthews of Scotland Yard in 1996 to investigate the case of James Hanratty and the A6 murder , having had access to all the files available , the trial transcript and a mass of new evidence .Both Roger Mathews and his assistant Badin Skitt concluded that not only was James Hanratty completely innocent but he should never have been charged.Mathews,who had always believed in capital punishment said he could no longer believe in it having studied a case where an innocent man was hanged.It was as a result of their investigations and conclusion that the case went to Appeal in 2002.

[Graham]

No mention of stopping at Huntercombe Lane-nor is there any mention of them stopping in Huntercombe Lane at any point in Foot's book Graham.

But there is in Woffinden's, Nats. I think you're being just a little selective here.

Here's what Bob says:

Clearly the cornfield was just one of a number of options. They first of all stopped at Huntercombe Lane South. No doubt they were disturbed and thus moved on Clear enough, I think? Page 32 of first edition paperback.

With due acknowledgment to Bob Woffinden

Graham.

[Graham]

Its worth remembering that a team of twenty police officers were appointed on the request of the Home Secretary under Superintendent Roger Matthews of Scotland Yard in 1996 to investigate the case of James Hanratty and the A6 murder , having had access to all the files available , the trial transcript and a mass of new evidence .Both Roger Mathews and his assistant Badin Skitt concluded that not only was James Hanratty completely innocent but he should never have been charged.Mathews,who had always believed in capital punishment said he could no longer believe in it having studied a case where an innocent man was hanged.It was as a result of their investigations and conclusion that the case went to Appeal in 2002.

And the appeal was rejected.

Graham

[Stevo7395]

http://youtu.be/2-x4nhjpVdw

It's amazing what you can find people have put on the web about the case. I found this video of a montage of pictures from the case.The song is by Helen Shapiro called " you don't know " and was number one in the charts around the time of the A6 Murder. There is only one comment in reply to whoever posted the video which states:

"this song was number one when I was born but anyway thank god this bastard was hanged for his brutal crime and my mother could rest peacefully in her bed."

Maybe I'm reading too much into that statement/comment but I wonder who the poster's mother was. Just seems an odd thing to put if the video didn't mean something personal to the person who made the comment.

Cheers, Steve

[propatria27]

A bit off subject, but Julie, I was reading some posts from a couple of years ago about the social and political situation in 1961 and noticed that you went to see West Ham, Tottenham and Leyton Orient (or Orient as they were then) and it brought back so many memories as that is exactly what I did from about 1967 - I remember some great nights at White Hart Lane, big European matches and seeing the great West Ham side with Moore, Hurst and Peters (and Harry Rednapp!). Also seeing Orient almost get promoted into the old 1st Division in 1970/71 but being denied on the last day of the season. Happy days!

Pete

[Natalie Severn]

But there is in Woffinden's, Nats. I think you're being just a little selective here.

Here's what Bob says:

Clearly the cornfield was just one of a number of options. They first of all stopped at Huntercombe Lane South. No doubt they were disturbed and thus moved on Clear enough, I think? Page 32 of first edition paperback.

With due acknowledgment to Bob Woffinden

Graham.

The Final Verdict---page 32 Bob Woffinden contains no statement whatsoever about any stop such as this in Huntercombe Lane.

Here is the only reference to the matter on page 32
[The motorcyclist has said there was a light on inside the car]

here is what Woffinden says:

'She[Valerie] said nothing about the interior light being left on when the gunman was in the car[it would have been highly improbable], and furthermore the car was still in its original position when Henderson[motorcyclist] observed it.[She had said that they had moved further into the field 'a few minutes after' the gunman entered .] Page 32 Woffinden.SO no mention whatever about them stopping in Huntercombe Lane Graham in the 1997 hard back.
On page 4 of same book Valerie is quoted as simply referring to passing byHuntercombe Lane on way to cornfield-no mention of stopping there-exactly as Foot quotes her on page 27 of his hardback,["Who Killed Hanratty?]He also quotes Valerie as saying in an article of Todaya magazine Valerie wrote for in June 9th 1962 "We had been to that particular spot quite a few times .In the Summer we had parked the car and wandered down to the river......"

[Natalie Severn]

And the appeal was rejected.

Graham

Indeed.The establishment apparently 'closed ranks' -as they did after the same Kenneth Oxford who arrested Hanratty had briefed Mrs Thatcher about the Hillsborough Disaster in April 1989 -just days after after 96 young people had been killed in Hillsborough, saying the disaster was caused by 'drunken Liverpool fans" .Since then 162 statements were tampered with / altered by police.
Thing is he died in run up to the 2002 appeal where he was wanted for questioning about 'tampered with/ altered statements' by Hanratty!

[Natalie Severn]

http://youtu.be/2-x4nhjpVdw
"this song was number one when I was born but anyway thank god this bastard was hanged for his brutal crime and my mother could rest peacefully in her bed."
Cheers, Steve

Charles France committed suicide a few days before Hanratty was hanged for a murder many people--- including the Scotland Yard police chief -Chief Superintendent Roger Matthews and Badin Skitt his second in command -believed to be innocent----after seeing the trial transcript and all the evidence most of it unseen by anyone but police-in 1996.
The role of Charles France is extremely murky---the more its looked into-the murkier it becomes.No doubt the France family did heave a sigh of relief when Hanratty was silenced for ever.

Ps Thanks Steve for the clip-nice one!

[Graham]

The Final Verdict---page 32 Bob Woffinden contains no statement whatsoever about any stop such as this in Huntercombe Lane.

Here is the only reference to the matter on page 32
[The motorcyclist has said there was a light on inside the car]

here is what Woffinden says:

'She[Valerie] said nothing about the interior light being left on when the gunman was in the car[it would have been highly improbable], and furthermore the car was still in its original position when Henderson[motorcyclist] observed it.[She had said that they had moved further into the field 'a few minutes after' the gunman entered .] Page 32 Woffinden.SO no mention whatever about them stopping in Huntercombe Lane Graham in the 1997 hard back.
On page 4 of same book Valerie is quoted as simply referring to passing byHuntercombe Lane on way to cornfield-no mention of stopping there-exactly as Foot quotes her on page 27 of his hardback,["Who Killed Hanratty?]He also quotes Valerie as saying in an article of Todaya magazine Valerie wrote for in June 9th 1962 "We had been to that particular spot quite a few times .In the Summer we had parked the car and wandered down to the river......"

Well, I've posted precisely what is written on Page 32 of my copy of Woffinden. Maybe you've got a later edition, and this statement was removed as it clashed with the notion that JH was 'sent' to the cornfield.

Further, on Page 3 of my copy - the very first page of text - Bob writes:

They left at about 9.20 - or so the landlady recalled - in their Morris Minor, and headed back along the A4 before taking the third turning on the right, Huntercombe Lane. They parked down there a little while, before moving off. After going over the newly-constructed M4 motorway, they forked right into Court Lane, and followed the road round to a cornfield at Dorney Reach

That's what Bob says! I believe him!

G

[Natalie Severn]

Well, I've posted precisely what is written on Page 32 of my copy of Woffinden. Maybe you've got a later edition, and this statement was removed as it clashed with the notion that JH was 'sent' to the cornfield.

Further, on Page 3 of my copy - the very first page of text - Bob writes:

They left at about 9.20 - or so the landlady recalled - in their Morris Minor, and headed back along the A4 before taking the third turning on the right, Huntercombe Lane. They parked down there a little while, before moving off. After going over the newly-constructed M4 motorway, they forked right into Court Lane, and followed the road round to a cornfield at Dorney Reach

That's what Bob says! I believe him!

G

My hardback edition of 1997 says simply :[they] headed back along the A4 before taking the third turning on the right,Huntercombe Lane.After going over the newly constructed motorway,they forked right into Court Lane and followed the road round to a cornfield at Dorney Reach"
Usually a later hardback edition is the more accurate-especially since this particular quote tallies with everything else we understand from Paul Foot,Today magazine ,the piece by Foot quoting what she said at trial from the transcript [Vol11,p43]
its not a question of believing or not believing its whether its right or wrong Graham .

[Graham]

My hardback edition of 1997 says simply :[they] headed back along the A4 before taking the third turning on the right,Huntercombe Lane.After going over the newly constructed motorway,they forked right into Court Lane and followed the road round to a cornfield at Dorney Reach"
Usually a later hardback edition is the more accurate-especially since this particular quote tallies with everything else we understand from Paul Foot,Today magazine ,the piece by Foot quoting what she said at trial from the transcript [Vol11,p43]
its not a question of believing or not believing its whether its right or wrong Graham .

Natalie,

I have just checked my copy of the paperback edition of Woffinden's book, and it was published in 1999, not 1997 - that was the date the work was first published. I apologise for my error in an earlier post. So what I quoted in the above posts was added to the work after 1997, i.e., it seems that Bob decided to include it in what is plainly a revised edition of the work. He could only have obtained the information about the stop-over in Huntercombe Lane from Valerie Storey - and it does undermine the case for JH being 'sent' to the cornfield on some kind of assignment. I'll say no more.

G

[Natalie Severn]

Natalie,

I have just checked my copy of the paperback edition of Woffinden's book, and it was published in 1999, not 1997 - that was the date the work was first published. I apologise for my error in an earlier post. So what I quoted in the above posts was added to the work after 1997, i.e., it seems that Bob decided to include it in what is plainly a revised edition of the work. He could only have obtained the information about the stop-over in Huntercombe Lane from Valerie Storey - and it does undermine the case for JH being 'sent' to the cornfield on some kind of assignment. I'll say no more.

G

Graham,
But this is not what Valerie said at the trial nor is it what was recorded at any time by Woffinden or Foot or Today magazine before this quote from your 1999 published book. Also if Valerie Storie did indeed speak to Woffinden as you suggest there is no reference to it by Woffinden -no mention of it whatsoever in any acknowledgement by Woffinden.In my edition Woffinden says Valerie was unwilling to participate in his book- though she was approached by him.She was also sent a letter by Foot but he Foot said he had no reply to his letter to her .Also I am sure Woffinden would have thanked Valerie had she agreed and made much of such a contribution.

[Graham]

Graham,
But this is not what Valerie said at the trial nor is it what was recorded at any time by Woffinden or Foot or Today magazine before this quote from your 1999 published book. Also if Valerie Storie did indeed speak to Woffinden as you suggest there is no reference to it by Woffinden -no mention of it whatsoever in any acknowledgement by Woffinden.In my edition Woffinden says Valerie was unwilling to participate in his book- though she was approached by him.She was also sent a letter by Foot but he Foot said he had no reply to his letter to her .Also I am sure Woffinden would have thanked Valerie had she agreed and made much of such a contribution.

If you wish, I will copy the relevant pages and send them to you!!!

G